HFBoards

HFBoards (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/index.php)
-   The History of Hockey (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/forumdisplay.php?f=126)
-   -   Round 2, Vote 6 (HOH Top Goaltenders) (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1304273)

TheDevilMadeMe 12-07-2012 01:13 PM

Round 2, Vote 6 (HOH Top Goaltenders)
 
NOTE FOR ROUND 6: Send votes to seventieslord

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2
  • The top ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
  • Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
  • Voters will rank their top available goaltenders
  • Final results will be posted and the top 4 vote getters will be added to the final list in order.
  • The process will be repeated for the next 4 places with remaining players until a list of 60 players is obtained

These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:
  • Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
  • Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" "sophistry" etc. when debating.
  • Please treat other debaters with respect
  • Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
  • Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (27):
Bring Back Scuderi; Canadiens1958; ContrarianGoaltender; DaveG; Dennis Bonvie; Dreakmur; foame; Hawkey Town 18; intylerwetrust; Jagorim Jarg; Johnny Engine; MadArcand; Mike Farkas; MXD; Nalyd Psycho; pappyline; quoipourquoi; reckoning; seventieslord; steve141; Sturminator; Taco MacArthur; tarheelhockey; TheDevilMadeMe; tony D; VanIslander; vecens24

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes.

TheDevilMadeMe 12-07-2012 01:17 PM

Vote 6 will begin now and debates are scheduled to run through Saturday, Dec 15. You can send votes to seventieslord beginning on December 13.

Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume that we never received it

Please note that you are ranking 8 of 10 candidates this time.

Vote 6 will be for places 21 through 24 on the Top 40 list.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Grant Fuhr
Ed Giacomin
George Hainsworth
Hap Holmes
Hugh Lehman
Harry Lumley
Billy Smith
Cecil "Tiny" Thompson
Rogie Vachon
Lorne "Gump" Worsley

MOD NOTE: Posts that don't focus on the available goalies will be deleted or moved at the discretion of the moderators.

TheDevilMadeMe 12-07-2012 01:27 PM

NHL All Star Teams

I'm including the unofficial GM-voted teams from the late 20s when available. 3rd Team All Stars are unofficial but based off the same pool of votes that determine 1st and 2nd Team.

George Hainsworth
  • no records past 1st Team for 1927, but Hainsworth had the lowest GAA
  • 2nd Team All Star (1928), behind Roy Worters, over Alec Connell
  • no records past 1st Team for 1929, but Hainsworth had the lowest GAA
  • no records for 1930, but Charlie Gardiner led goalies in Hart voting
  • 3rd Team All Star (1932) behind Charlie Gardiner and Tiny Thompson
Hainsworth appears to be 4th in All Star voting in 1931 and 1936 and 5th in 1934 and 1935

Tiny Thompson
  • no records for 1930, but Thompson had the lowest GAA as Charlie Gardiner led all goalies in Hart voting
  • 2nd Team All Star (1931) behind Charlie Gardiner, ahead of Roy Worters
  • 3rd Team All Star (1934) behind Charlie Gardiner and Roy Worters
  • 2nd Team All Star (1935) behind Lorne Chabot, ahead of Roy Worters
  • 1st Team All Star (1936) ahead of Wilf Cude and Mike Karakas (Thompson's 3rd Vezina season)
  • 3rd Team All Star (1937) behind Normie Smith and Wilf Cude
  • 1st Team All Star (1938) ahead of Dave Kerr and Wilf Cude (Thompson's 4th Vezina)
In 1933, Thompson won his second Vezina for best GAA but was 4th in All Star voting behind John Ross Roach, Charlie Gardiner, and Roy Worters. Otherwise unheard of in this era.

Harry Lumley
  • 3rd Team All Star (1946) behind Bill Durnan and Frank Brimsek
  • 1st Team All Star (1954) ahead of Terry Sawchuk and Al Rollins
  • 1st Team All Star (1955) ahead of Terry Sawchuk and Jacques Plante
Lumley was 4th in 1947 and 5th in 1948 (out of 6 goalies).

Gump Worsley
  • 3rd Team All Star (1956) behind Glenn Hall and Jacques Plante
  • 3rd Team All Star (1961) behind Johnny Bower and Glenn Hall
  • 2nd Team All Star (1966) behind Glenn Hall, ahead of Roger Crozier
  • 1st Team All Star (1968) ahead of Ed Giacomin and Johnny Bower
Worsely was a also a distant 4th in 1963

Ed Giacomin
  • 1st Team All Star (1967) ahead of Glenn Hall and Denis DeJordy
  • 2nd Team All Star (1968) behind Gump Worsley, ahead of Johnny Bower
  • 2nd Team All Star (1969) behind Glenn Hall, ahead of Jacques Plante
  • 2nd Team All Star (1970) behind Tony Esposito, ahead of Jacques Plante
  • 1st Team All Star (1971) ahead of Tony Esposito and Jacques Plante
Giacomin finished 6th in 1973 - behind his teammate Gilles Villemure who was 3rd.

Rogie Vachon
  • 2nd Team All Star (1975) behind Bernie Parent, ahead of Gary Smith
  • 2nd Team All Star (1977) behind Ken Dryden, ahead of Chico Resch
Vachon finished 4th in 1974 and 1978.

Billy Smith
  • 1st Team All Star (1982) - over Grant Fuhr and Rick Wamsley
Smith was a 1st Team All Star in 1982 by a wide margin, but this is the only season he received a significant number of votes. GMs gave him the Vezina in 1982 (the first voted on Vezina), and he was 4th in Vezina voting in 1983 (much higher than he was in All Star voting).

Grant Fuhr
  • 2nd Team All Star (1982) behind Billy Smith, over Rick Wamsley
  • 3rd Team All Star (1986) behind John Vanbiesbrouck and Bob Froese
  • 3rd Team All Star (1987) behind Ron Hextall and Mike Liut
  • 1st Team All Star (1988) ahead of Patrick Roy and Tom Barrasso
Fuhr was 6th in both Vezina and All-Star voting in 1996.

TheDevilMadeMe 12-07-2012 01:46 PM

Hart Trophy Top 5 finishes
Lehman and Holmes were not eligible. Still available goalies aren't getting much Hart consideration, so this is the last time I'm going to post this table.

name1st2nd3rd4th5thtotal
Harry Lumley010113
Rogie Vachon011002
Ed Giacomin010001
Grant Fuhr010001
Gump Worsley001001
Tiny Thompson000101
George Hainsworth000000
Billy Smith000000

Junk stat for team success

nameCupsfinalsSmythestotal
Hap Holmes47011
Billy Smith45110
Grant Fuhr4408
George Hainsworth2417
Hugh Lehman1607
Gump Worsley3306
Harry Lumley1405
Tiny Thompson1214
Rogie Vachon1203
Ed Giacomcin0101

Smythes include Retro Smythes as determined by the HHOF. I'm only giving goalies credit for Cup wins and finals when they played the majority of the games. By this metric, Vachon gets credit for the 1969 Cup, as he played 8 games vs 7 for Gump. Vachon also played more games than Gump in the 1967 loss in the finals. Giacomin makes the cut for losing the 1972 finals - he played 10 games and Villemure played 6.

I'm not including Lehman's 2 lost Cup challenges both in 1910 before the first playoffs for the Cup were established (starting in 1914 the Cup finals pitted the PCHA champion vs the NHL champion). Retro Smythes only go back to 1918, so they don't cover Lehman's win in 1915 or Holmes' wins in 1914 and 1917.

TheDevilMadeMe 12-07-2012 02:00 PM

Personal opinion - I don't think either of the 3 new candidates are really worth looking at this round.

Giacomin had a great 5 year stretch in the regular season, but it was against fairly weak competition, as Hall and Plante were both aging. Plante had actually retired in 1965, but came out of retirement in 1969 at the age of 40. Hall was 35 in 1967, had become a tandem goalie with Denis DeJordy, and had been deemed expendable by Chicago in the expansion. That's right, the 2nd and 3rd goalies in All Star voting in 1967 were in a tandem for the same team.

Giacomin was regularly horrible in the playoffs during his 5 year regular season peak - and it wasn't like the Rangers were a bad team. After 1971, he was in a tandem situation with Gilles Villemure, who often had better numbers in the regular season. But without the burden of being a full-time goalie in the regular season, Giacomin played much better in the playoffs.

Other than Brodeur who is still active, Vachon is the first North American goalie to become available who isn't in the Hockey Hall of Fame. Regardless as to whether you think he deserves enshrinement or not, he seems like a clear step down from Gump Worsley to me. And I don't think Gump is a shoe-in this round.

1970s goalies are pretty well-represented on our list, and as I think Vachon and Giacomin are a clear step down from the recently added Esposito and Parent, I think they can wait.

Hap Holmes has a fascinating story - the only goalie in history with 4 Cups with 4 different teams. But I think he should probably be ranked at least one step below Lehman, and Lehman hasn't been added yet.

seventieslord 12-07-2012 02:44 PM

Lehman and Holmes had a very Durnan/Broda relationship, with one of them getting all the regular season honours and the other seemingly aways prevailing in the playoffs.

MXD 12-07-2012 03:02 PM

While I may partly at fault for that, I'm kinda shocked to see that Chuck Rayner isn't up for voting - he would probably have made my Top-4.

That group seems really weaker than the preceding one, which is a good thing.... I guess.

TheDevilMadeMe 12-07-2012 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord (Post 56345869)
Lehman and Holmes had a very Durnan/Broda relationship, with one of them getting all the regular season honours and the other seemingly aways prevailing in the playoffs.

Part of the Durnan/Broda thing is that Broda always beat Durnan head to head in the playoffs.

I looks like Holmes and Lehman played in the playoffs every season between 1918 and 1924. I believe this is their full playoff record head to head, as there were no PCHA playoffs before 1918, and Lehman didn't make the playoffs in 1925 or 1926.

In 1918, Holmes' Toronto Arenas beat Lehman's Vancouver Millionaires in the Cup finals.
In 1919, Holmes's Seattle Metropolitans beat Lehman's Vancouver Millionaires in the PCHA finals.
In 1920, Holmes's Seattle Metropolitans beat Lehman's Vancouver Millionaires in the PCHA finals.
In 1921, Lehman's Vancouver Millionaires beat Holmes' Seattle Metropolitans in the PCHA finals.
In 1922, Lehman's Vancouver Millionaires beat Holmes' Seattle Metropolitans in the PCHA finals.
In 1923, Lehman's Vancouver Maroons beat Holmes' Seattle Metropolitans in the PCHA finals.
In 1924, Lehman's Vancouver Maroons beat Holmes' Seattle Metropolitans in the PCHA finals.

I see Lehman with a 4-3 record over Holmes head to head in the playoffs. Holmes' teams tended to be more successful in the finals though. Holmes was 4-2-1 in the Cup finals, though 2 of the wins were with the NHA/NHL. Lehman was 1-6 in the Cup finals.

Another reason to possibly prefer Broda is that Durnan's longevity was poor, something that obviously wasn't a problem with Lehman.

quoipourquoi 12-07-2012 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 56344211)
Personal opinion - I don't think either of the 3 new candidates are really worth looking at this round.

Agreed. It would take a lot of convincing not to grant one of them an 8th place vote and leave the rest un-ranked.


I know Billy Smith has his issues, particularly with a lack of separation between himself and Resch and Melanson in regular season save percentage (which also plagued Belfour), but he may be quite high on my ballot. He may have been on a team with a hot hand (1st, 1st, 2nd, 5th, 6th place finishes in a 21-team league from 1980-1984), but sometimes all it takes is for a goaltender to not drop the ball. Any accounts of a playoff series from that five-year run where the Islanders had to bail him out with some abnormally high offense? 1983 against Boston or 1980 against Philadelphia, perhaps?

Rob Scuderi 12-07-2012 07:23 PM

Worsley is a real wildcard here for me, I was much more confident in my ranking of him coming into this project than I am now. If he never gets swapped for Plante would his Rangers career have been better than Rayner's? Two 3rd-Team spots are nice, but he wasn't going to take them to the finals and didn't garner the same award consideration.

Worsley actually got sent to the AHL following his trade to Montreal and Charlie Hodge was chosen as the Habs starter (This seemed to matter for other goalies). Worsley then rebounded obviously and earned a First and Second Team All-star spots, but in that time Hodge earned two Second Team placements himself. This looks awfully similar to Smith/Resch concerns, minus the playoffs where Smith did less platooning than Worsley.

That said we only leave two off this round and Giacomin looks good for one of those spots so Worsley will make my top 8.

Canadiens1958 12-07-2012 07:59 PM

Gump Worsley
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi (Post 56354191)
Worsley is a real wildcard here for me, I was much more confident in my ranking of him coming into this project than I am now. If he never gets swapped for Plante would his Rangers career have been better than Rayner's? Two 3rd-Team spots are nice, but he wasn't going to take them to the finals and didn't garner the same award consideration.

Worsley actually got sent to the AHL following his trade to Montreal and Charlie Hodge was chosen as the Habs starter (This seemed to matter for other goalies). Worsley then rebounded obviously and earned a First and Second Team All-star spots, but in that time Hodge earned two Second Team placements himself. This looks awfully similar to Smith/Resch concerns, minus the playoffs where Smith did less platooning than Worsley.

That said we only leave two off this round and Giacomin looks good for one of those spots so Worsley will make my top 8.


Bolded is simply false.

1963 after the trade, Worsley won the #1 goalie position with the Canadiens. Charlie Hodge was sent to the Quebec Aces of the AHL.

In the 8th game of the season in Toronto, Worsley suffered a serious hamstring pull and was lost for app 6 weeks. Second hamstring injury in three seasons. Conditioning was always an issue for Gump Worsley.

Once the injury healed, Worsley had problems with conditioning and lateral movement. He was sent to Quebec to play himself into shape and regain the lateral mobility.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...worslgu01.html

see the injuries paragraph below:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gump_Worsley

Took well into the 1964-65 season before Worsley was back in NHL game shape.

Another issue with Worsley was his aversion to flying.

pappyline 12-07-2012 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi (Post 56354191)
Worsley is a real wildcard here for me, I was much more confident in my ranking of him coming into this project than I am now. If he never gets swapped for Plante would his Rangers career have been better than Rayner's? Two 3rd-Team spots are nice, but he wasn't going to take them to the finals and didn't garner the same award consideration.

Worsley actually got sent to the AHL following his trade to Montreal and Charlie Hodge was chosen as the Habs starter (This seemed to matter for other goalies). Worsley then rebounded obviously and earned a First and Second Team All-star spots, but in that time Hodge earned two Second Team placements himself. This looks awfully similar to Smith/Resch concerns, minus the playoffs where Smith did less platooning than Worsley.

That said we only leave two off this round and Giacomin looks good for one of those spots so Worsley will make my top 8.

Bower is already rated and I wonder if Worsley should be rated close to him. Their careers overlay each other with some direct competition in their early years. Worsley was the Ranger goalie in 52-53 and won the calder. In 53-54 Bower beat out Worsley for the Ranger job and Gump spent the season in the minors. In 53-54 Gump won the job back and Bower went to the minors. Gump then played several years with mostly bad Ranger teams without much recognition. Bower toiled in the AHL for several years with much recognition. As older players, they both did well with good teams. Each won 4 stanley cups and 2 Vezinas. Gump had 2 AS selections and Bower had one. Is there much difference in the careers of these two?

Mike Farkas 12-07-2012 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quoipourquoi (Post 56353659)
Agreed. It would take a lot of convincing not to grant one of them an 8th place vote and leave the rest un-ranked.


I know Billy Smith has his issues, particularly with a lack of separation between himself and Resch and Melanson in regular season save percentage (which also plagued Belfour), but he may be quite high on my ballot. He may have been on a team with a hot hand (1st, 1st, 2nd, 5th, 6th place finishes in a 21-team league from 1980-1984), but sometimes all it takes is for a goaltender to not drop the ball. Any accounts of a playoff series from that five-year run where the Islanders had to bail him out with some abnormally high offense? 1983 against Boston or 1980 against Philadelphia, perhaps?

Billy Smith is someone I really plan to put under the microscope here. I want to do some film study on him first and then see where it takes me. The main point of this post was going to be...we don't have an Islanders dynasty pimper here? I'm kind of surprised by that...unless I'm forgetting someone (in which case I apologize) but I never see anyone telling me Mike Bossy was better than Maurice Richard...

You'd think of all the boards here, an older Islanders fan would find HoH to be a scarce safe haven from the present state of affairs...;)

Rob Scuderi 12-07-2012 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 (Post 56355157)
Bolded is simply false.

1953 after the trade, Worsley won the #1 goalie position with the Canadiens. Charlie Hodge was sent to the Quebec Aces of the AHL.

In the 8th game of the season in Toronto, Worsley suffered a serious hamstring pull and was lost for app 6 weeks. Second hamstring injury in three seasons. Conditioning was always an issue for Gump Worsley.

Once the injury healed, Worsley had problems with conditioning and lateral movement. He was sent to Quebec to play himself into shape and regain the lateral mobility.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...worslgu01.html

see the injuries paragraph below:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gump_Worsley

Took well into the 1964-65 season before Worsley was back in NHL game shape.

Another issue with Worsley was his aversion to flying.

Appreciate the correction, I guess if he was ready by the '65 playoffs the Canadiens couldn't have been too upset all things considered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pappyline (Post 56355185)
Bower is already rated and I wonder if Worsley should be rated close to him. Their careers overlay each other with some direct competition in their early years. Worsley was the Ranger goalie in 52-53 and won the calder. In 53-54 Bower beat out Worsley for the Ranger job and Gump spent the season in the minors. In 53-54 Gump won the job back and Bower went to the minors. Gump then played several years with mostly bad Ranger teams without much recognition. Bower toiled in the AHL for several years with much recognition. As older players, they both did well with good teams. Each won 4 stanley cups and 2 Vezinas. Gump had 2 AS selections and Bower had one. Is there much difference in the careers of these two?

This is a very good point and you're right Worsley can't fall too far. I had Lumley above him last round, but he didn't seem to get much attention. You voiced support for him last round, do you mind if I ask how you see the two?

pappyline 12-07-2012 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi (Post 56355805)

This is a very good point and you're right Worsley can't fall too far. I had Lumley above him last round, but he didn't seem to get much attention. You voiced support for him last round, do you mind if I ask how you see the two?

Well, if we don't vote Worsley in this round then maybe we have Bower too high though my eyes tell me that Bower was the better goalie.

Now I had Lumley higher than Worsley last round also and I still may go that way. Those 2 first AS for Lumley on an average leaf team do impress me. Also it seems to me that goalies that play well for bad teams really get penalized. This goes for guys like Lumley (on the Hawks), Rollins, Rayner, Henry etc. Whereas guys like Smith and Fuhr get too much credit because they lucked out with good teams.

TheDevilMadeMe 12-08-2012 12:12 AM

I've become a little skeptical of the value of Lumley's two 1st Team All Star nods. They happened during the period of time when the 1st Team alway went to the goalie with the lowest GAA (who played a minimum number of games). And that on its own doesn't mean they weren't deserved, but the fact that Lumley got so few votes in seasons when he didn't lead the league in GAA makes me seriously question whether he was actually better than Sawchuk those two seasons

Edit: I had Lumley over Worsley when I submitted my list before discussion; now I'm not so sure about that

Canadiens1958 12-08-2012 07:01 AM

Gump Worsley
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pappyline (Post 56357059)
Well, if we don't vote Worsley in this round then maybe we have Bower too high though my eyes tell me that Bower was the better goalie.

Now I had Lumley higher than Worsley last round also and I still may go that way. Those 2 first AS for Lumley on an average leaf team do impress me. Also it seems to me that goalies that play well for bad teams really get penalized. This goes for guys like Lumley (on the Hawks), Rollins, Rayner, Henry etc. Whereas guys like Smith and Fuhr get too much credit because they lucked out with good teams.

When Gump Worsley retired only Terry Sawchuk had played more games as an NHL goalie. Interesting, given that Worsley was known for various conditioning issues throughout his career.

Also the Worsley/Bower cycle with the Rangers was salary related as opposed to talent related. Job went to the lowest bidder.

MXD 12-08-2012 07:06 AM

Anybody here has an idea on how to separate Gump Worsley from George Hainsworth? As odd as it seems, those are two guys whose career seem somehow really similar.

While I do think TDMM was a bit harsh on Giacomin, I do indeed believe he shouldn't get serious Top-4 consideration. How is he THAT much different from Tiny Thompson? I don't know. Aside from the tandem thing... And even then, one of them played in a tandem-friendly era, the other didn't really.

MXD 12-08-2012 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Farkas (Post 56355225)
I'm kind of surprised by that...unless I'm forgetting someone (in which case I apologize) but I never see anyone telling me Mike Bossy was better than Maurice Richard...

...That doesn't make much sense though. That would be like saying Guy Lapointe was a better D-Men than Denis Potvin...

Canadiens1958 12-08-2012 07:15 AM

Finally
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 56360875)
I've become a little skeptical of the value of Lumley's two 1st Team All Star nods. They happened during the period of time when the 1st Team alway went to the goalie with the lowest GAA (who played a minimum number of games). And that on its own doesn't mean they weren't deserved, but the fact that Lumley got so few votes in seasons when he didn't lead the league in GAA makes me seriously question whether he was actually better than Sawchuk those two seasons

Edit: I had Lumley over Worsley when I submitted my list before discussion; now I'm not so sure about that

Finally the flaw in your AST position and that of others surfaces.

The AST voting was never about which goalie or skater was better at their position. Rather the AST reflects which players had Star Quality Seasons in relation to their positional peers. 1959-60 season, Dean Prentice and Bronco Horvath were 2nd team LW and C All Stars. They were not better than Dickie Moore and Henri Richard at LW and C but both produced Star Quality Seasons that captured the imagination of voters and fans.

Likewise for the Lumley/ Sawchuk comparison.

Canadiens1958 12-08-2012 07:41 AM

Coaching
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MXD (Post 56363921)
Anybody here has an idea on how to separate Gump Worsley from George Hainsworth? As odd as it seems, those are two guys whose career seem somehow really similar.

While I do think TDMM was a bit harsh on Giacomin, I do indeed believe he shouldn't get serious Top-4 consideration. How is he THAT much different from Tiny Thompson? I don't know. Aside from the tandem thing... And even then, one of them played in a tandem-friendly era, the other didn't really.

I'll throw in Thompson as well plus Worters and Charlie Gardiner.

All five had great success with great coaches.

Hainsworth won SCs with Cecil Hart but like most goalies did not with Dick Irvin.

Worsley was a valuable asset playing for Toe Blake but a character during the rest of his career.

Tiny Thompson won the last pre forward pass SC in Boston but as the game passed by Art Ross and the Bruins his performance lagged.

Tommy Gorman coached - Worters Hart in 1928-29, Gardiner SC in 1934, Connell - SC in 1935, as GM signed Bill Durnan. Knew how to build a team around a goalie.

MXD 12-08-2012 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 56360875)
I've become a little skeptical of the value of Lumley's two 1st Team All Star nods. They happened during the period of time when the 1st Team alway went to the goalie with the lowest GAA (who played a minimum number of games). And that on its own doesn't mean they weren't deserved, but the fact that Lumley got so few votes in seasons when he didn't lead the league in GAA makes me seriously question whether he was actually better than Sawchuk those two seasons

Edit: I had Lumley over Worsley when I submitted my list before discussion; now I'm not so sure about that

Or it's possibly just a case of catching lightning in a bottle? Not totally unheard of at any point of hockey history.

Though I agree that without those seasons, we're possibly looking at a Top-50 goalie of all-time instead of a Top-30. Not sure whether those two great season were effectively better than Vachon's two great seasons (75 and 77) though, even if Vachon actually ended up with a 2nd AST instead of a 1st (possibly due to playing with a sorta weak team... and more teams in the league).

Lumley was a bit young in the 40ies, but SEEMS to have been the 5th best goalie in the league in the Post-WWII era. And his 1st AST seasons were crowned with a 1-8 record in the playoffs. Granted, goalies shouldn't be expected to win many games when their team scores less than 1.75 goals a game, but Lumley also gave more than 3 goals in game in those playoffs as well -- more than one goal a game over his season average. Playing against Detroit didn't help in that regards, though.

MXD 12-08-2012 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 (Post 56364115)
I'll throw in Thompson as well plus Worters and Charlie Gardiner.

All five had great success with great coaches.

Hainsworth won SCs with Cecil Hart but like most goalies did not with Dick Irvin.

Worsley was a valuable asset playing for Toe Blake but a character during the rest of his career.

Tiny Thompson won the last pre forward pass SC in Boston but as the game passed by Art Ross and the Bruins his performance lagged.

Tommy Gorman coached - Worters Hart in 1928-29, Gardiner SC in 1934, Connell - SC in 1935, as GM signed Bill Durnan. Knew how to build a team around a goalie.

In re Hainsworth : Don't you think being 38 years old kindof explains why he stopped winning? The Leafs had a pretty good team when he was there...

Canadiens1958 12-08-2012 08:15 AM

Winning
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MXD (Post 56364177)
In re Hainsworth : Don't you think being 38 years old kindof explains why he stopped winning? The Leafs had a pretty good team when he was there...

The Leafs with Hainsworth for three seasons won during the regular season - 1st/1st/2nd by two points, so age was not a factor.. Dick Irvin's playoff magic held and the team underperformed.

ContrarianGoaltender 12-08-2012 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MXD (Post 56364123)
Lumley was a bit young in the 40ies, but SEEMS to have been the 5th best goalie in the league in the Post-WWII era. And his 1st AST seasons were crowned with a 1-8 record in the playoffs. Granted, goalies shouldn't be expected to win many games when their team scores less than 1.75 goals a game, but Lumley also gave more than 3 goals in game in those playoffs as well -- more than one goal a game over his season average. Playing against Detroit didn't help in that regards, though.

I agree that Lumley was probably the 5th best goalie in the league quite a bit, with the possible exception of his two big seasons in Toronto, and even in those seasons I'm not sure he stood out that much relative to the pack (although it is harder to do so against the five best goalies in the world of course):

1953-54:
Sawchuk .933
Lumley .923
McNeil .922
Bower .922
Henry .913
Rollins .905

1954-55:
Lumley .929
Sawchuk .926
Plante .925
Worsley .915
Henderson .900
Rollins .892

The other thing with Lumley is that he was the most well-travelled goalie of the original six era, but looking at the teams before and after they had him, it doesn't seem like he made much of a positive difference at all:

Traded from Detroit to Chicago:

Brimsek in Chicago (1949-50): 22-38-10, 3.49
Sawchuk in Detroit (1950-51): 44-13-13, 1.99

Lumley in Detroit (1949-50): 33-16-14, 2.35
Lumley in Chicago (1950-51): 12-41-10, 3.90

Traded from Chicago to Toronto:

Rollins in Toronto (1951-52): 29-24-16, 2.22
Rollins in Chicago (1952-53): 27-28-15, 2.50

Lumley in Chicago (1951-52): 17-44-9, 3.46
Lumley in Toronto (1952-53): 27-30-13, 2.39

Traded from Toronto to Chicago:

Lumley in Toronto (1955-56): 21-28-10, 2.67
Backups in Toronto (1955-56): 3-5-3, 1.87
Chadwick in Toronto (1956-57): 21-34-15, 2.66

Traded from Chicago to Boston:

Sawchuk/Simmons in 1956-57: 31-19-10, 2.40
Lumley in Boston (1957-58 to 1959-60): 35-33-9, 3.16
Simmons in Boston (1957-58 to 1959-60): 51-53-20, 2.95

I'm not sure how fair it is to Lumley to make those comparisons across seasons, but it's not exactly evidence in his favour, although it does not include his two best seasons since they came in the middle of his Toronto tenure.

The other concerning thing about Lumley is that he was basically finished as a starting goalie in the NHL at the age of 29, which is quite early for that period. Lumley did have a lot of mileage on him at that point since he broke in so young, but he was beat out in Chicago training camp by Al Rollins in 1956, and played the 1956-57 season for Buffalo in the AHL on a team that missed the playoffs. He then mostly backed up Don Simmons from 1957-58 to 1959-60, although Lumley did take over as starter at times, both during the 1959 playoffs and for much of the 1959-60 season.

Lumley does kind of give the impression of a goalie that was a bit of a prodigy that was perfectly positioned to break into the league early during WWII when the regular goalies were overseas and just kind of hang around as an unspectacular original six goalie for a long time with a couple of very good seasons in there on good defensive teams. That certainly has value but I'm not sure if it's top 30 value. For now I have Gump Worsley comfortably ahead of Lumley because I think his results are better given their respect team contexts.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:43 AM.

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com, A property of CraveOnline, a division of AtomicOnline LLC ©2009 CraveOnline Media, LLC. All Rights Reserved.