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TheNudge 12-07-2012 03:54 PM

Redraft 1989
 
The reason why I felt a big need to re draft this draft was because two of my favorite player of all time have retired Fedorov and Lidstrom. Also I'm a huge Detroit Fan.


SO let's re-draft and I'll go first.


1st. Nicklas Lidstrom (Quebec)
2nd. Sergei Fedorov (Islander)
3rd. Mats Sundin (Toronto)
4th. Pavel bure (Winnipeg)
5th. Bill Guerin (New Jersey)
6th. Bobby Holik (Chicago)
7th. Olaf Kolzig (Minnesota)
8th. Robert Reichel (Vancouver)
9th. Adam Foote (St. Louis)
10th. Dallas Drake(Hartfort) He's a winner
11th. Mike Sillinger (Detroit)
12th. Arturs Irbe (Toronto)
13th. Patrice Brisebois (Montreal)
14th. donal Audette (Buffalo)
15th. Vladimir Malakhov ( Edmonton)
16th. Vladimir Konstantinov ( Pittsburgh)
17th. Stu Barnes (Boston)
18th. Kris Draper (New Jersey)
19th. Rob Zamuner (Washington)
20th. Scott Thornton (Ranger)
21st. Greg Johnson (Toronto)


Your turn!!

The Brewmeister 12-07-2012 03:59 PM

1st. Nicklas Lidstrom (Quebec)
2nd. Mats Sundin (Toronto)
3rd. Sergei Fedorov (Islander)
4th. Pavel bure (Winnipeg)
5th. Bobby Holik (Chicago)
6th. Adam Foote (St. Louis)
7th. Bill Guerin (New Jersey)
8th. Chris Osgood (Detroit)
9th. Olaf Kolzig (Minnesota)
10th. Robert Reichel (Vancouver)
11th. Dallas Drake(Hartfort) He's a winner
12th. Mike Sillinger (Toronto)
13th. Kris Draper (New Jersey)
14th. Patrice Brisebois (Montreal)
15th. Donald Audette (Buffalo)
16th. Vladimir Malakhov ( Edmonton)
17th. Vladimir Konstantinov ( Pittsburgh)
18th. Stu Barnes (Boston)
19th. Arturs Irbe (Washington)
20th. Scott Thornton (Ranger)
21st. Greg Johnson (Toronto)

boredmale 12-07-2012 04:03 PM

It's easy now to say Russians like Federov and Bure should be picked top 5, but back in 1989 picking a Russian was a longshot because nobody thought they would come over

VanW27 12-07-2012 04:07 PM

That's a heck of a top 4 from Europe.

The Podium 12-07-2012 04:08 PM

What i like about this scenario, is that Toronto has Sundin from the beginning, doesnt have to trade Clark, then trade what became Luongo for Clark which in turn would have solidified our goaltending in the present day and would not require months of speculation that started a war between Toronto and Vancouver fans :laugh:

But then again, in my redraft Sundin goes 2nd.

Scarecrow Boat 12-07-2012 04:09 PM

Like the '81 thread I'll throw in a name that went undrafted, Doug Weight

JetsAlternate 12-07-2012 09:56 PM

Interestingly enough, scouts at the time were aware of how talented Pavel Bure was, and after he was drafted, many felt he was the most talented player selected that year. The issue was that nobody except Vancouver knew he was eligible, plus the Soviet factor made it questionable whether he would ever play in the NHL. Here's an excerpt from a Pittsburgh Gazette article written on June 15, 1989:

http://www.pbfc.org/oldnews.html

Quote:

NHL Entry Draft
- -Pittsburgh Post Gazette
June 15, 1989

The most tallented prospect available for the 1989 NHL Entry Draft is Pavel Bure, but it's a cinch he won't go in the first round. That's because Bure bunks in Moscow and patrols left wing for the Central Red Army team. Barring a defection, his date of arrival in North America is unknown.
Teams apparently knew how talented he was, but the "Soviet factor" kept him from being drafted in the first round.

Quote:

The Controversial Draft Selection of Pavel Bure
- -Canucks Almanac
June 17, 1989

The Canucks decided to use their 6th round choice to select Bure, trying to jump the gun before the other teams did. Head of Scouting Mike Penny convinced Canucks GM Pat Quinn to select Bure, taking into account that a 6th round choice is always a big risk. The Canucks selected Pavel Bure 113th, three picks before Detroit, and seven before Edmonton. The words had barely come out of NHL vice president's mouth when the outrage began. Every team's table in the bunch was yelling expletives at everyone at the Canuck table.

Eventually, teams complained that the pick was invalid, including letters from the Capitals and Whalers. Teams complained that because the NHL's own record book claimed he was invalid, that it was unfair to have the Canucks choose him even if they could prove it to be legal, as every other team was misled by the NHL themselves. 11 months later... NHL president John Ziegler finally made his decision. The pick was invalid, and Bure would be pooled back into the 1990 Draft.
Quote:

Bure reinstated as Canucks pick by NHL president
by Mike Beamish - - Vancouver Sun
June 20, 1990

Igor Larionov was a valuable ally in helping the Vancouver Canucks reverse a decision by NHL president John Ziegler that allows the Canucks to retain the playing rights to Soviet junior star Pavel Bure.

"We got Igor to do some research right after the decision and he was able to visit with the appropriate people and come up with a more refined set of statistics," said Canuck GM Pat Quinn. "He was able to go back and explain in his own language what we neede."

Ziegler said Thursday that new information obtained by the Canucks and certified by the Soviet Ice Hockey Federation backed Vancouver's claim of Bure, a left winger, in the sixth round of the 1989 entry draft.

"Pavel Bure is reinstated on the Vancouver Canucks reserve list as an unsigned draft choice," Ziegler said in a press release Thursday.

"Mr. Ziegler did as he said he would," Quinn said. "He was able to verify our new statistics and acted accordingly."

On may 21, Ziegler, following an 11 month investigation, ruled against the Canucks and voided their pick of Bure. Ziegler said information obtained by the league showed that Bure didn't play a required number of games in an elite European league during the 1987-88 season that would have allowed him to be picked beyond the third round.

Ziegler earlier ruling meant that the 19-year-old Bure, a second team all-star at this year's world championships, would be placed back in the 1990 draft, scheduled Saturday morning at B.C. Place Stadium.

Bure was considered by many to be the best player eligible in the 1989 draft. It's unlikely, however he'll be released to play in the NHL before the 1994 Olympics.
Based on how the media and teams perceived him at the time, I think he would have been drafted first overall if the Soviet factor were not an issue and other teams knew Pavel was eligible to be drafted. This is based on knowledge at the time, disregarding what we now know about such players as Nik Lidstrom. If we were to redraft based on what we know now, I would place him second overall, potentially first overall. If Pavel were healthy and had played a full career, he would have, without question, been regarded as one of the greatest players of all time, let alone the '89 draft class. A team that wanted immediate success would have picked him instantly.

Had Steve Smith not knocked him into the end boards in 1996 and caused the initial ACL tear, Pavel may have lasted much longer in the NHL. Pavel was destined for all-time greatness and still stands as one of the greats despite a short career. He had achieved 400 goals in 2002 and despite being plagued with knee problems in 2003, he still continued to produce in his final year. If he had not held out in 1998 and had been healthy enough to continue his career, he would have reached 500 goals before the 2004 lockout.

In 2005, he would have been a player aged 34, and may have had six years left in his career. He would likely have dominated in the new NHL due to the removal of clutching and grabbing, and with only ~250 goals, post-lockout, needed to pass Brett Hull for third all-time in NHL goal scoring, I think he would have done it. Injuries robbed him of what could have been a spectacular career.

Another thing I must mention is that Pavel had no legitimate first-line players to play alongside in Vancouver. He played with a revolving door of players including Greg Adams, Murray Craven, Geoff Courtnall, among many others. With a legitimate first-line playmaker, Pavel perhaps would have eclipsed 70 goals in a single season, and could have accomplished even more in his time in the NHL. I think it's fair to say he was the most talented player available in the 1989 draft. It's a shame he isn't recognized that way.

Gigantor The Goalie 12-07-2012 10:05 PM

Osgood at 11th and 8th overall? You know its a horrible draft class when...

Mystlyfe 12-08-2012 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoytoSakic (Post 56358613)
Osgood at 11th and 8th overall? You know its a horrible draft class when...

Two current HoF players and two future first ballot guys.

TheNudge 12-08-2012 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoytoSakic (Post 56358613)
Osgood at 11th and 8th overall? You know its a horrible draft class when...

winning 3 Cup is not a joke. Respect 'The Wizard of Oz, he's the man.

PantherStriker 12-08-2012 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetsAlternate (Post 56358359)
Interestingly enough, scouts at the time were aware of how talented Pavel Bure was, and after he was drafted, many felt he was the most talented player selected that year. The issue was that nobody except Vancouver knew he was eligible, plus the Soviet factor made it questionable whether he would ever play in the NHL. Here's an excerpt from a Pittsburgh Gazette article written on June 15, 1989:

http://www.pbfc.org/oldnews.html



Teams apparently knew how talented he was, but the "Soviet factor" kept him from being drafted in the first round.





Based on how the media and teams perceived him at the time, I think he would have been drafted first overall if the Soviet factor were not an issue and other teams knew Pavel was eligible to be drafted. This is based on knowledge at the time, disregarding what we now know about such players as Nik Lidstrom. If we were to redraft based on what we know now, I would place him second overall, potentially first overall. If Pavel were healthy and had played a full career, he would have, without question, been regarded as one of the greatest players of all time, let alone the '89 draft class. A team that wanted immediate success would have picked him instantly.

Had Steve Smith not knocked him into the end boards in 1996 and caused the initial ACL tear, Pavel may have lasted much longer in the NHL. Pavel was destined for all-time greatness and still stands as one of the greats despite a short career. He had achieved 400 goals in 2002 and despite being plagued with knee problems in 2003, he still continued to produce in his final year. If he had not held out in 1998 and had been healthy enough to continue his career, he would have reached 500 goals before the 2004 lockout.

In 2005, he would have been a player aged 34, and may have had six years left in his career. He would likely have dominated in the new NHL due to the removal of clutching and grabbing, and with only ~250 goals, post-lockout, needed to pass Brett Hull for third all-time in NHL goal scoring, I think he would have done it. Injuries robbed him of what could have been a spectacular career.

Another thing I must mention is that Pavel had no legitimate first-line players to play alongside in Vancouver. He played with a revolving door of players including Greg Adams, Murray Craven, Geoff Courtnall, among many others. With a legitimate first-line playmaker, Pavel perhaps would have eclipsed 70 goals in a single season, and could have accomplished even more in his time in the NHL. I think it's fair to say he was the most talented player available in the 1989 draft. It's a shame he isn't recognized that way.

Interesting post! Never knew there was this much controversy surrounding Bure. Thanks!

TheNudge 12-08-2012 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JetsAlternate (Post 56358359)
Interestingly enough, scouts at the time were aware of how talented Pavel Bure was, and after he was drafted, many felt he was the most talented player selected that year. The issue was that nobody except Vancouver knew he was eligible, plus the Soviet factor made it questionable whether he would ever play in the NHL. Here's an excerpt from a Pittsburgh Gazette article written on June 15, 1989:

http://www.pbfc.org/oldnews.html



Teams apparently knew how talented he was, but the "Soviet factor" kept him from being drafted in the first round.





Based on how the media and teams perceived him at the time, I think he would have been drafted first overall if the Soviet factor were not an issue and other teams knew Pavel was eligible to be drafted. This is based on knowledge at the time, disregarding what we now know about such players as Nik Lidstrom. If we were to redraft based on what we know now, I would place him second overall, potentially first overall. If Pavel were healthy and had played a full career, he would have, without question, been regarded as one of the greatest players of all time, let alone the '89 draft class. A team that wanted immediate success would have picked him instantly.

Had Steve Smith not knocked him into the end boards in 1996 and caused the initial ACL tear, Pavel may have lasted much longer in the NHL. Pavel was destined for all-time greatness and still stands as one of the greats despite a short career. He had achieved 400 goals in 2002 and despite being plagued with knee problems in 2003, he still continued to produce in his final year. If he had not held out in 1998 and had been healthy enough to continue his career, he would have reached 500 goals before the 2004 lockout.

In 2005, he would have been a player aged 34, and may have had six years left in his career. He would likely have dominated in the new NHL due to the removal of clutching and grabbing, and with only ~250 goals, post-lockout, needed to pass Brett Hull for third all-time in NHL goal scoring, I think he would have done it. Injuries robbed him of what could have been a spectacular career.

Another thing I must mention is that Pavel had no legitimate first-line players to play alongside in Vancouver. He played with a revolving door of players including Greg Adams, Murray Craven, Geoff Courtnall, among many others. With a legitimate first-line playmaker, Pavel perhaps would have eclipsed 70 goals in a single season, and could have accomplished even more in his time in the NHL. I think it's fair to say he was the most talented player available in the 1989 draft. It's a shame he isn't recognized that way.


Lidstrom is by far the best defencement in the last 25 years or even longer. Also Fedorov is one of the best 2 way player to ever play this game. Fedorov could of also been drafted as a Defencement, Sergei was such a clutch performer in the playoff and a all round that I rather have him over Bure anytime of the week. Like I said I rather a player that would score when needed, play defence when needed, fore check when needed then a flashy player. What did Bure win except the maurice Richard Trophy ??? Fedorov won

1993-94

NHL

Hart Memorial Trophy



1993-94

NHL

Frank J. Selke Trophy



1993-94

NHL

Lester B. Pearson Trophy



1995-96

NHL

Frank J. Selke Trophy

I also forgot he won 3 Cup with the Wings.



Also did you know that Fedorov once payed 14 M in a single season !!! Yep that the record for the highest paid player in a single season.

Claude The Fraud 12-08-2012 03:35 PM

1st. Nicklas Lidstrom (Quebec)
2nd. Mats Sundin (Islander)
3rd. Sergei Fedorov (Toronto)
4th. Bill Guerin (Winnipeg)
5th. Pavel Bure (New Jersey)
6th. Olaf Kolzig (Chicago)
7th. Adam Foote (Minnesota)
8th. Bobby Holik (Vancouver)
9th. Vladimir Konstantinov (St. Louis)
10th. Robert Reichel (Hartfort)
11th. Kris Draper (Detroit)
12th. Artus Irbe (Toronto)
13th. Stu Barnes (Montreal)
14th. Mike Sillinger (Buffalo)
15th. Vladimir Malakhov (Edmonton)
16th. Travis Green (Pittsburgh)
17th. Patrice Brisebois (Boston)
18th. Rob Zamuner (New Jersey)
19th. Scott Thornton (Washington)
20th. Jason Wooley (Ranger)
21st. Greg Johnson (Toronto)

Claude The Fraud 12-08-2012 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheNudge (Post 56348301)
11th. Chris Osgood (Detroit)

Osgood was drafted in '91.

Gigantor The Goalie 12-08-2012 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mystlyfe (Post 56361423)
Two current HoF players and two future first ballot guys.

I should have said bad depth to the class, which was my thought. First couple picks are fine, its when you get past the top 5 picks and hit Osgood at number 8 and 11 is when theres trouble.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheNudge (Post 56361615)
winning 3 Cup is not a joke. Respect 'The Wizard of Oz, he's the man.

He was a good enough goalie. Not a game breaker. Reminds me of Neimi in the way that he had good enough teams in front of him that he just had to screw up less then the other goalie. Only difference between him and Neimi is that Osgood was the starter for one more Cup then Neimi.

TheNudge 12-08-2012 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Claude The Fraud (Post 56373421)
Osgood was drafted in '91.



You right and for that reason I made some change to the redraft. The reason why I made that mistake is I was thinking of doing the 1991 re-draft thread but went with the 1989 since I'm a huge Detroit fan.

tony d 12-09-2012 12:13 PM

Top 10:

1) Lidstrom
2) Sundin
3) Fedorov
4) Bure
5) Guerin
6) Kolzig
7) Holik
8) Foote
9) Konstantinov
10) Reichel

SirloinUB 12-10-2012 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Brewmeister (Post 56348455)
1st. Nicklas Lidstrom (Quebec)
2nd. Mats Sundin (Toronto)
3rd. Sergei Fedorov (Islander)
4th. Pavel bure (Winnipeg)
5th. Bobby Holik (Chicago)
6th. Adam Foote (St. Louis)
7th. Bill Guerin (New Jersey)
8th. Chris Osgood (Detroit)
9th. Olaf Kolzig (Minnesota)
10th. Robert Reichel (Vancouver)
11th. Dallas Drake(Hartfort) He's a winner
12th. Mike Sillinger (Toronto)
13th. Kris Draper (New Jersey)
14th. Patrice Brisebois (Montreal)
15th. Donald Audette (Buffalo)
16th. Vladimir Malakhov ( Edmonton)
17th. Vladimir Konstantinov ( Pittsburgh)
18th. Stu Barnes (Boston)
19th. Arturs Irbe (Washington)
20th. Scott Thornton (Ranger)
21st. Greg Johnson (Toronto)

7 of those guys were drafted by detroit! that is phenomenal

TheNudge 12-10-2012 07:09 AM

:yo:
Quote:

Originally Posted by SirloinUB (Post 56415689)
7 of those guys were drafted by detroit! that is phenomenal

That s why there calling the best draft for a team. Could you imagine if Detroit would have gotten Bure with the 6th round instead of vancouver. Now Bure would of score soo much.

Keke 12-10-2012 08:07 AM

It's too early to put them in order. Anything can happen




:sarcasm:

Eisen 12-10-2012 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiGician (Post 56417527)
It's too early to put them in order. Anything can happen




:sarcasm:

They might come out of retirement^^

The Grouch 12-10-2012 11:43 AM

Are we assuming Vladimir Konstantinov is still involved in a career ending accident? If not I think he is the 5th best player from this draft, and I would certainly take him ahead of Foote.

Wrath 12-10-2012 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheNudge (Post 56371445)
Lidstrom is by far the best defencement in the last 25 years or even longer. Also Fedorov is one of the best 2 way player to ever play this game. Fedorov could of also been drafted as a Defencement, Sergei was such a clutch performer in the playoff and a all round that I rather have him over Bure anytime of the week. Like I said I rather a player that would score when needed, play defence when needed, fore check when needed then a flashy player. What did Bure win except the maurice Richard Trophy ??? Fedorov won

1993-94

NHL

Hart Memorial Trophy



1993-94

NHL

Frank J. Selke Trophy



1993-94

NHL

Lester B. Pearson Trophy



1995-96

NHL

Frank J. Selke Trophy

I also forgot he won 3 Cup with the Wings.



Also did you know that Fedorov once payed 14 M in a single season !!! Yep that the record for the highest paid player in a single season.

Ray Bourque says hi. Lidstrom is undeniably the best defenseman of the past 15 years, but he wasn't even in the league 25 years ago.

An argument could be made for being "by far the best" the past 25 years, but that would only fly if you cut off 1980-1987 seasons from Bourque (which were more than 25 years ago). Otherwise you have the perennial Bourque vs Lidstrom debate which is nowhere near a runaway for either of them.



Also, if memory serves me correct Joe Sakic was paid 18 million dollars in one year after the Avs signed the Rangers frontloaded offer sheet.

seventieslord 12-10-2012 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Grouch (Post 56421239)
Are we assuming Vladimir Konstantinov is still involved in a career ending accident? If not I think he is the 5th best player from this draft, and I would certainly take him ahead of Foote.

agree. I am thinking 8th at the absolute worst, but probably 5th.

vadim sharifijanov 12-10-2012 12:57 PM

1. lidstrom (quebec)
2. fedorov (NYI)
3. bure (toronto)
4. sundin (winnipeg)
5. konstantinov (NJ)*
6. foote (chi)
7. holik (minnesota)
8. kolzig (vancouver)
9. guerin (st. louis)
10. irbe (hartford)
11. draper (detroit)
12. reichel (toronto)
13. malakhov (montreal)
14. dafoe (buffalo)
15. barnes (edmonton)
16. brisebois (pittsburgh)
17. woolley (boston)
18. drake (NJ)
19. klatt (washington)
20. aaron miller (NYR)
21. audette (toronto)

* assuming that the freak car accident never happens

kind of weird that picks 9-13 all were players that eventually ended up on those franchises.

also, i'm kind of surprised to see rob zamuner on a lot of these lists. he seems to be still massively overrated from being randomly picked for the '98 olympic team. a good role player, but he didn't do a whole lot over his career. i mean, i can see a pretty solid case for him over audette, say, or sillinger, but i'd rather have a guy like trent klatt.


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