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-   -   Proposal: S. Despres for J. Schwartz (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1305535)

Violent By Design 12-08-2012 08:31 PM

S. Despres for J. Schwartz
 
This came up in the Gormley for Schwartz thread. Blues fans seem to be high on Despres as a partner for Pietrangelo, and I think Schwartz is the kind of ready to go wing prospect the Penguins have been looking for. I have yet to see input from any Pens fans on this proposal but it seems like a deal that greatly benefits both sides.

SLAPSHOT723 12-08-2012 08:38 PM

I don't do it if I'm St. Louis. I wouldn't trade Schwartz.

bleedblue1223 12-08-2012 08:49 PM

Despres isn't enough of an upgrade over Cole to move Schwartz for.

Brewster 12-08-2012 08:49 PM

I would say that that is probably a fair deal.

Exit Dose 12-08-2012 08:52 PM

Would Blues fans be more receptive to Dumoulin?

bleedblue1223 12-08-2012 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exit Dose (Post 56381427)
Would Blues fans be more receptive to Dumoulin?

I think it should be Gormley caliber or better, otherwise we will just go with Cole and see what happens at the draft.

SLAPSHOT723 12-08-2012 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exit Dose (Post 56381427)
Would Blues fans be more receptive to Dumoulin?

Can't imagine they would. They're stacked on RH defenseman. They have Pietrangelo, Shattenkirk, Polak, and Schmaltz.

EDIT: Never mind, he's LH.

Oshie97 12-08-2012 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 (Post 56381357)
Despres isn't enough of an upgrade over Cole to move Schwartz for.

I agree, would rather keep Schwartz and play Cole (who I think will be better than most think). I would pull the trigger for Gormley though, think he will be a stud.

Falco Lombardi 12-08-2012 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 (Post 56381571)
I think it should be Gormley caliber or better, otherwise we will just go with Cole and see what happens at the draft.

Well said. I think most Blues fans would agree with this.

lakai17 12-08-2012 09:17 PM

Cole is a defensive defenceman, Despres will be just as effective if not more when he becomes a regular on the Penguins.

comparing Despres to Cole!?? Really! :amazed:

bleedblue1223 12-08-2012 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lakai17 (Post 56382177)
Cole is a defensive defenceman, Despres will be just as effective if not more when he becomes a regular on the Penguins.

comparing Despres to Cole!?? Really! :amazed:

Where did I say anything that Cole would be as good as Despres? Pietrangelo doesn't need a spectacular partner, and Cole did a good job when he was paired with him, especially against Pittsburgh when he they went up against Crosby.

I said Despres isn't enough of an upgrade over Cole to move Schwartz for. Notice I said he would be an upgrade. We need Schwartz's playmaking abilities to take over for McDonald in the future.

Vankiller Whale 12-08-2012 09:25 PM

What about Joe Morrow? I think he's more highly regarded than Despres, no? I don't think he's as good as Gormley, but to be honest I'd much rather have Gormley than Schwartz.

bleedblue1223 12-08-2012 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale (Post 56382433)
What about Joe Morrow? I think he's more highly regarded than Despres, no?

I think I'd prefer him, but again IMO, it should be Gormley or bust.

If we have a draft like we did after the last lockout, we would have a likely draft pick in the 10-15 range, so we could just get a LHD then.

Exit Dose 12-08-2012 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 (Post 56382523)
I think I'd prefer him, but again IMO, it should be Gormley or bust.

If we have a draft like we did after the last lockout, we would have a likely draft pick in the 10-15 range, so we could just get a LHD then.

Why isn't Morrow in Gormley's league, or Dumoulin for that matter?

bleedblue1223 12-08-2012 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exit Dose (Post 56383877)
Why isn't Morrow in Gormley's league, or Dumoulin for that matter?

I think Morrow is just a notch below, but he is right behind him, it is not a knock on Morrow at all. I'd take Cole over Dumoulin.

MovesLikeJagr68 12-09-2012 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exit Dose (Post 56383877)
Why isn't Morrow in Gormley's league, or Dumoulin for that matter?

Although Morrow should turn out to be the Pens better D prosoect, I think the Blues would be looking for more of a defensive Despres or Dumoulin type guy over a Morrow type.

bleedblue1223 12-09-2012 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MovesLikeJagr68 (Post 56386159)
Although Morrow should turn out to be the Pens better D prosoect, I think the Blues would be looking for more of a defensive Despres or Dumoulin type guy over a Morrow type.

We need another all-round type defenseman. After Pietrangelo, all of our defensemen are clearly offensive or defensive, and when Pietrangelo when down with a sprained MCL against LA, we were screwed. We need insurance in the future in case Pietrangelo ever gets hurt or banged up again.

rumrokh 12-09-2012 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 (Post 56386245)
We need another all-round type defenseman. After Pietrangelo, all of our defensemen are clearly offensive or defensive, and when Pietrangelo when down with a sprained MCL against LA, we were screwed. We need insurance in the future in case Pietrangelo ever gets hurt or banged up again.

I basically agree, but there are a few things worth noting here. First, as awesome as it would be to have a clear first pairing guy to play with Pietrangelo, I think most level-headed Blues fans agree that it's a bit overstated. The Blues' defense is very, very good. Pietrangelo is an immense part of it and the Blues wouldn't have been screwed against nearly any other team. LA and NJ were the two teams who looked clearly better than the Blues did in the playoffs, even with Pietrangelo out.

Second, Pietro is in the single digits among best players in the league. Unless the other defenseman they get is also elite, they're going to notice his loss immensely, regardless. The same goes for the #1 defenseman of every other playoff team and then some.

Third, the reason they need an all-around guy, I think, is much less about injury security and much more about that guy's ability to keep up on the first pairing. He needs to be reliable in all zones, otherwise, Pietro is forced to carry the pairing. Pietrangelo can, of course, but that guy only needs to be good enough that Pietro doesn't have to carry him and that pairing takes a large leap in quality.

Finally, Shattenkirk just finished his sophomore year in which he made massive defensive strides. Dude's defensive game is overlooked by even a lot of Blues fans. He was inconsistent in the playoffs, but it was his very first. I'd like to see the Blues have a two-way defenseman with a nice pop of size and physicality, but Shattenkirk is already a very good two-way defenseman and, going forward, will be able to shoulder more responsibility just fine if Pietro gets hurt.

I have other things to say about the Blues having to play with a disposition on the edge so that other teams are afraid of their own stars being roughed up instead of the other way around, but that's kind of beside the point. More on point: the Blues are very unlikely to move Schwartz for another equally unestablished or less established player, regardless of their depth at wing. If they trade him, it'll be for a guy who can step in and handle serious minutes.

bleedblue1223 12-09-2012 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rumrokh (Post 56388185)
I basically agree, but there are a few things worth noting here. First, as awesome as it would be to have a clear first pairing guy to play with Pietrangelo, I think most level-headed Blues fans agree that it's a bit overstated. The Blues' defense is very, very good. Pietrangelo is an immense part of it and the Blues wouldn't have been screwed against nearly any other team. LA and NJ were the two teams who looked clearly better than the Blues did in the playoffs, even with Pietrangelo out.

Second, Pietro is in the single digits among best players in the league. Unless the other defenseman they get is also elite, they're going to notice his loss immensely, regardless. The same goes for the #1 defenseman of every other playoff team and then some.

Third, the reason they need an all-around guy, I think, is much less about injury security and much more about that guy's ability to keep up on the first pairing. He needs to be reliable in all zones, otherwise, Pietro is forced to carry the pairing. Pietrangelo can, of course, but that guy only needs to be good enough that Pietro doesn't have to carry him and that pairing takes a large leap in quality.

Finally, Shattenkirk just finished his sophomore year in which he made massive defensive strides. Dude's defensive game is overlooked by even a lot of Blues fans. He was inconsistent in the playoffs, but it was his very first. I'd like to see the Blues have a two-way defenseman with a nice pop of size and physicality, but Shattenkirk is already a very good two-way defenseman and, going forward, will be able to shoulder more responsibility just fine if Pietro gets hurt.

I have other things to say about the Blues having to play with a disposition on the edge so that other teams are afraid of their own stars being roughed up instead of the other way around, but that's kind of beside the point. More on point: the Blues are very unlikely to move Schwartz for another equally unestablished or less established player, regardless of their depth at wing. If they trade him, it'll be for a guy who can step in and handle serious minutes.

I agree. I think our ideal target is Giordano. I don't think we will trade for a prospect, unless it is a great talent.

Guys like Giordano, Sekera, etc. should be our targets. Players that can play in all situations and handle 20+ minutes, but aren't at that top level, meaning Schwartz won't be moved. We don't need anyone elite, just someone more durable and reliable than Colaiacovo. Cole could very well turn into that defenseman, and I think he is already a good enough stop-gap if he isn't the long-term solution.

Black Label 12-09-2012 11:32 AM

For better or worse, the Penguins seem like they want to go into the season (if there is one) with the defensemen that are currently on the roster. I can't see any trades being made any time soon. If the season happens and some of the prospects show that they can step up and take on bigger minutes (Morrow), then guys like Despres could be on the trade block, presumably. But this wouldn't happen right away and the value of guys like Despres may change between now and then. The organization also seems high on guys like Bennett right now and seem willing to give the younger guys a shot before trading any assets. So they'll probably let Bennett and Tangradi fight it out for a top-6 spot.

Leaf Rocket 12-09-2012 01:29 PM

This seems like a good deal but for some blues fan I can see them wanting to ask for a bit more along with Despres.

I am a big fan of both but I think Schwartz demands just a bit more than despres.

SteenMachine 12-09-2012 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lakai17 (Post 56382177)
Cole is a defensive defenceman, Despres will be just as effective if not more when he becomes a regular on the Penguins.

comparing Despres to Cole!?? Really! :amazed:

Limiting Cole to being a 1 dimensional player?!?! REALEARYALRYASR?>E?!#$?!#$?!#

Gimme a break, assuming Despres will just fall into being a top pairing player and that Cole can't play both ends of the ice is just as ridiculous as thinking someone would waste Schwartz on a redundant piece, when Schwartz could fill an important role in the future as well as Cole being able to prove himself in the present.

CarvinSigX 12-09-2012 03:46 PM

Cole should end up being a good skating two way defender that can put up 20-30 points alongside Pietrangelo. He's not afraid to throw his weight around either.

Eskimo44 12-09-2012 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 (Post 56382523)
I think I'd prefer him, but again IMO, it should be Gormley or bust.

If we have a draft like we did after the last lockout, we would have a likely draft pick in the 10-15 range, so we could just get a LHD then.

I would argue that Joe Morrow is very good value. Despres is not enough for Schwartz IMO. However Gormley as of now is worth more than everyone i've listed, and a Gormley for Schwartz deal is every bit as lopsided for PHX as a Despres for Schwartz deal is for STL.

Eskimo44 12-09-2012 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarvinSigX (Post 56400681)
Cole should end up being a good skating two way defender that can put up 20-30 points alongside Pietrangelo. He's not afraid to throw his weight around either.

Yeah, if i were you guys Cole would be just fine.


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