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-   -   If Chara's career ends today, is he in the Hall of Fame? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1306001)

OzzyFan 12-10-2012 11:16 AM

If Chara's career ends today, is he in the Hall of Fame?
 
If Zdeno Chara's career ended today, would he be inducted into the NHL Hall of Fame?

bp spec 12-10-2012 11:31 AM

I don't think so.

Fire Julien 12-10-2012 11:35 AM

Definitely in.

The Grouch 12-10-2012 12:12 PM

If Chara didn't get in today, I don't know what else he would have to do to get elected.

- A Norris Trophy
- Captained a team to a Stanley Cup Championship
- 2 1st Team All-Star Selections
- 4 2nd Team All-Star Selections.

IMO he's had a career similar to(if not better)than Rod Langway who is in the HoF.

Here is the list of Norris Trophy winners who have been the captain of a Stanley Cup winning team:

Zdeno Chara
Nick Lidstrom
Scott Niedermayer
Denis Potvin

Pretty exclusive list. If he retired today, I think Chara would get in for sure.

Hammer Time 12-10-2012 12:15 PM

Quite easily.

Ohashi_Jouzu 12-10-2012 12:19 PM

Superficially he has his Cup and his Norris, so that's a good start. Having two 1st team and four 2nd team all-star nods adds pretty decent support. He also seems to get spot Hart consideration (in the form of a few votes) just about every year of his tenure as Bruins' captain, which helps. In his own way he has also been one of the most "dominant" every situation defensemen for a while now, too. He'd be similarly borderline to someone like, say, Lindros, I suppose. Both deserving, probably.

Sevanston 12-10-2012 12:23 PM

He certainly could make it in based on what he's done to date, but I wouldn't call him a shoe-in just yet.

struckbyaparkedcar 12-10-2012 12:56 PM

The Cup put him over the top, IMO. I think Blake is a decent comparable.

The only thing I can really say against him is that he doesn't have a dominant playoff run. Without a Conn Smythe winning performance in net, the Bruins haven't gotten past the second round of the playoffs. Even into the 2011 Finals, he was the fourth Bruin listed in Puckdaddy's Smythe favorites

There isn't even a set of games I can think of as "Chara's series."

That being said, he's easily the second-best Bruin from the 2011 team on paper, and again, that's probably enough to get him there.

TAnnala 12-10-2012 12:59 PM

I think he gets in.

struckbyaparkedcar 12-10-2012 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Grouch (Post 56420503)
If Chara didn't get in today, I don't know what else he would have to do to get elected.

- A Norris Trophy
- Captained a team to a Stanley Cup Championship
- 2 1st Team All-Star Selections
- 4 2nd Team All-Star Selections.

IMO he's had a career similar to(if not better)than Rod Langway who is in the HoF.

Here is the list of Norris Trophy winners who have been the captain of a Stanley Cup winning team:

Zdeno Chara
Nick Lidstrom
Scott Niedermayer
Denis Potvin

Pretty exclusive list. If he retired today, I think Chara would get in for sure.

Langway's peak is in another universe compared to anything Chara has done. Consecutive Norris trophies, and a Hart runner up to a prime Wayne Gretzky, with more significant competition for each. Chara couldn't get there against a historically weak field in 2011. You'd have to put a whole lot of value into Captaining a team to a Cup while barely factoring into the Smythe discussion to even get him close.

No Fun Shogun 12-10-2012 01:06 PM

Yes, I think so, but I wouldn't say it was a slam dunk and I wouldn't be surprised if he had to wait a bit.

Hockey Outsider 12-10-2012 02:11 PM

There are only two eligible Norris trophy winners who aren't in the Hall of Fame - Doug Wilson and Randy Carlyle. (I say "eligible" as this excludes locks like Lidstrom and Chelios, and recent winners like Keith and Karlsson). Chara has more all-star selections (two first-team, four second-team) than Wilson and Carlyle do combined (two first-team, two second-team), which is a good reason for his induction.

Chara placed in the top five in Norris voting six times. There have only been 19 other defensemen in NHL history who have done so - every one of them is either in the Hall of Fame or is a lock (ie Lidstrom, Chelios). Even if we lower the standards to five-time finalists, 22 of the 24 players are in the Hall, Rob Blake is borderline (personally I'd vote for him) and JC Tremblay appears to be the only "no".

Based on historical precedents, Chara will be in the Hall of Fame.

The Grouch 12-10-2012 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar (Post 56421811)
Langway's peak is in another universe compared to anything Chara has done.


No it isn't. If you said Langway's peak was marginally better than Chara's, that would not be unreasonable, but the hyperbolic statement of "in another universe" is ridiculous. Chara's peak has spanned a much longer period of time than Langway's, and you could argue that Chara's best seasons were better than Langway's best seasons.


Quote:

Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar (Post 56421811)
Consecutive Norris trophies, and a Hart runner up to a prime Wayne Gretzky, with more significant competition for each


Those things are nice, but you are talking about a two year period, when comparing careers Chara comes out on top. Also, if you compare each of their two best season's, again I think Chara comes out on top. While I don't personally want to argue it(as a fan of Langway), It could be argued that Langway didn't deserve the Norris in 82-83.

VeddarRants 12-10-2012 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider (Post 56423653)
There are only two eligible Norris trophy winners who aren't in the Hall of Fame - Doug Wilson and Randy Carlyle. (I say "eligible" as this excludes locks like Lidstrom and Chelios, and recent winners like Keith and Karlsson). Chara has more all-star selections (two first-team, four second-team) than Wilson and Carlyle do combined (two first-team, two second-team), which is a good reason for his induction.

Chara placed in the top five in Norris voting six times. There have only been 19 other defensemen in NHL history who have done so - every one of them is either in the Hall of Fame or is a lock (ie Lidstrom, Chelios). Even if we lower the standards to five-time finalists, 22 of the 24 players are in the Hall, Rob Blake is borderline (personally I'd vote for him) and JC Tremblay appears to be the only "no".

Based on historical precedents, Chara will be in the Hall of Fame.

I agree with everything here... but I do wonder sometimes if he needs two more elite seasons before the idea of him being HOF worthy is accepted mainstream. Considering his attention to physical fitness and his own desires to play in his 40's, he should play at least another 7 seasons which will help pad his accomplishments and climb his way up the list of all-time great dmen. I would not be surprised to see Chara end his career with a majority census putting him among the top 20 dmen of all time.

Kane One 12-10-2012 02:22 PM

I voted no, but he probably will if he actually waits. I don't think he will get in in three years.

mouser 12-10-2012 02:59 PM

Might not first ballot depending on who's eligible that year, but I think he'd get in the hall sooner or later.

Dellstrom 12-10-2012 03:06 PM

Not a shoe-in and he'd have to wait. But I'd say yes.

He's won the Norris once, has been a finalist countless times, plenty of 1st/2nd teams, captained his team to the Cup, and has been one of, if not the most dominant defenseman during his time in Boston.

Bruinsfan_37 12-10-2012 03:46 PM

As much as I want to say yes right now I don't think he would get in. Depends on his next 2-3 seasons and how that goes for him

pdd 12-10-2012 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Grouch (Post 56423681)
It could be argued that Langway didn't deserve the Norris in 82-83.

Langway didn't deserve to win the Norris at all. 1982-83 should have been Mark Howe's (and the second of four 1st-team selections for Howe), and 1983-84 should have been the second of eight for Raymond Bourque.

As for Chara, IIRC no defensemen who has ever been a four-time Norris finalist has been denied entry.

struckbyaparkedcar 12-10-2012 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Grouch (Post 56423681)
No it isn't. If you said Langway's peak was marginally better than Chara's, that would not be unreasonable, but the hyperbolic statement of "in another universe" is ridiculous. Chara's peak has spanned a much longer period of time than Langway's, and you could argue that Chara's best seasons were better than Langway's best seasons.

No, it really is. Consecutive Norris Trophies and significant Hart consideration over a three year span is more significant than anything Chara has or will likely ever accomplish by a lot. Additionally, Chara's peak (what you're referring to is prime) is actually either shorter than Lagnway's (only really giving him 2009) or dragged down by mediocre seasons in comparison (2007-2012).

The reason for the hyperbole is because you're trying to compare a player getting in largely off of career accomplishment and being consistently very good (Chara) to a player getting in virtually entirely off of an absurd three year stretch to go with merely adequate longevity.

Quote:

Those things are nice, but you are talking about a two year period, when comparing careers Chara comes out on top. Also, if you compare each of their two best season's, again I think Chara comes out on top. While I don't personally want to argue it(as a fan of Langway), It could be argued that Langway didn't deserve the Norris in 82-83.
Actually it's three, from 82-84. And even if you don't give Langway the Norris in 83, does it really matter? Do any of Chara's second best seasons beat Mark Howe that year? I'd say nay.

PhillyBluesFan 12-10-2012 05:55 PM

100% yes. Its a damn shame Lidstrom was gifted his Norris Trophy though

MeowLeafs 12-10-2012 06:33 PM

If he retires now, yes, definitely. Maybe not on his first chance though. But given the fact that he's still an elite player, I would say there's a chance that once he does retire years from now, he'll be first ballot. He's still elite and still has a shot at another Norris (his window is probably over now, but I wouldn't rule it out entirely). If not a norris, he'll likely garner at least another first or second all star nod, and has a good chance at captaining the Boston team to another cup.

VeddarRants 12-10-2012 07:19 PM

I think if he does at least one of these things ( to go along with the stat compiling from now until he retires ) he'll be a shoe-in, first ballot.

- Plays two more elite level seasons ( most likely to happen )

- Wins one more Norris ( could happen, but Norris contention is stiff now )

- Wins one more Cup as a Captain ( could happen )

- Wins a Hart ( improbable, but not impossible )

- Wins a Conn Smythe ( again improbable but not impossible )

Analyzer 12-10-2012 07:21 PM

Right now, probably not first time. However, if he were to win another Norris/nominations he'd probably get in.

Aucoin11* 12-10-2012 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar (Post 56421551)
The Cup put him over the top, IMO. I think Blake is a decent comparable.

The only thing I can really say against him is that he doesn't have a dominant playoff run. Without a Conn Smythe winning performance in net, the Bruins haven't gotten past the second round of the playoffs. Even into the 2011 Finals, he was the fourth Bruin listed in Puckdaddy's Smythe favorites

There isn't even a set of games I can think of as "Chara's series."

That being said, he's easily the second-best Bruin from the 2011 team on paper, and again, that's probably enough to get him there.

So to start off, the idea of quoting puck daddy's conn smythe favorites when it lists kesler as number 1 is pretty stupid and a generally weak argument.

Even though he hasn't had a series definitively won by him, just look at how often top forwards have done against him in the playoffs while in boston.
Looking at the cup run,
Montreal:I'll concede chara didn't have the most best series here, but there was that whole stomach flu 10 pound loss thing. But beyond that, just watch the bruins in game 2 versus game 3. Completely different team. That said in reference to defensive production against top forwards, Cammy and the habs did a large majority of his damage on the powerplay. At even strength Chara did a pretty good job.

Philadelphia: Famed clutch forward daniel briere, same guy who obliterated buffalo just the round prior, lead the playoffs in scoring the year before, and has led the nhl in playoff scoring since the lockout had one point against the bruins. And what a surprise chara wasn't on the ice for it.

Tampa: Chara was on the ice for one martin st. louis and vincent lecavalier even strength goal. It was an empty netter. Lecavalier himself had one goal against boston, it was a powerplay goal and a brutal one by thomas to say the least.

Vancouver: I don't need to redocument this.

So yes, chara hasn't dominated a series in the flashiest and most obvious way, but something needs to be said for his fantastic consistency year to year throughout the regular season and playoffs for shutting down top forwards. It is an incredibly undervalued skill that isn't really replicated by anyone left in the league anymore.


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