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-   -   Redo the '90 draft (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1306275)

Claude The Fraud 12-10-2012 11:32 PM

Redo the '90 draft
 
1 - Jaromir Jagr (Quebec)
2 - Martin Brodeur (Vancouver)
3 - Keith Tkachuk (Detroit)
4 - Derian Hatcher (Philadelphie)
5 - Doug Weight (Pittsburgh)
6 - Owen Nolan (NY Islanders)
7 - Sergei Zubov (Los Angeles)
8 - Petr Bondra (Minnesota)
9 - Keith Primeau (Washington)
10 - Viacheslav Kozlov (Toronto)
11 - Mike Ricci (Calgary)
12 - Geoff Sanderson (Montreal)
13 - Alexei Zhamnov (NY Rangers)
14 - Petr Nedved (Buffalo)
15 - Craig Conroy (Hartford)
16 - Darryl Sydor Chicago
17 - Bryan Smolinski (Edmonton)
18 - Chris Simon (Vancouver)
19 - Felix Potvin (Winnipeg)
20 - Mikael Renberg (New Jersey)
21 - Richard Smehlik (Boston)

vadim sharifijanov 12-10-2012 11:46 PM

1. jagr (quebec)
2. brodeur (vancouver)
3. hatcher (detroit)
4. zubov (philadelphia)
5. nolan (pittsburgh)
6. tkachuk (NYI)
7. weight (minnesota)
8. bondra (LA)
9. ricci (washington)
10. nedved (toronto)
11. primeau (calgary)
12. potvin (montreal)
13. sydor (NYR)
14. zhamnov (buffalo)
15. kozlov (hartford)
16. renberg (chicago)
17. lang (edmonton)
18. sanderson (vancouver)
19. smolinski (winnipeg)
20. conroy (NJ)
21. smehlik (boston)

i gave extra consideration to guys who contributed soon after being drafted (potvin, ricci, e.g.) over late bloomers (lang, conroy, e.g.)

TAnnala 12-11-2012 03:09 AM

I am actually having hard time of deciding between Brodeur and Jagr. In retrospect, Jagr will probably give you better peak performance but Brodeur has been very loyal to his team. Something Jagr can't say.

Better player is Jagr but if I would be a GM the best choice would be Brodeur by far. Finding a arguably top-5 goalie of all time with 20-year career is something every single General Manager dreams about. One of the biggest things you will get canned for is taken care of for the rest of your own career.

TheDevilMadeMe 12-11-2012 03:44 AM

1 - Martin Brodeur (Quebec)
2 - Jaromir Jagr (Vancouver)
3 - Sergei Zubov (Detroit)
4 - Derian Hatcher (Philadelphie)
5 - Doug Weight (Pittsburgh)
6 - Keith Tkachuk (NY Islanders)
7 - Owen Nolan (Los Angeles)
8 - Petr Bondra (Minnesota)
9 - Viacheslav Kozlov (Washington)
10 - Darryl Sydor (Toronto)
11 - Felix Potvin (Calgary)
12 - Mike Ricci (Montreal)
13 - Keith Primeau (NY Rangers)
14 - Petr Nedved (Buffalo)
15 - Alexei Zhamnov (Hartford)
16 - Craig Conroy Chicago
17 - Geoff Sanderson(Edmonton)
18 - Bryan Smolinski (Vancouver)
19 - Robert Lang (Winnipeg)
20 - Mikael Renberg (New Jersey)
21 - Richard Smehlik (Boston)

Czech Your Math 12-11-2012 04:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TAnnala (Post 56444891)
I am actually having hard time of deciding between Brodeur and Jagr. In retrospect, Jagr will probably give you better peak performance but Brodeur has been very loyal to his team. Something Jagr can't say.

Better player is Jagr but if I would be a GM the best choice would be Brodeur by far. Finding a arguably top-5 goalie of all time with 20-year career is something every single General Manager dreams about. One of the biggest things you will get canned for is taken care of for the rest of your own career.

Good points for the most part. I think Quebec was one of the more unique situations. Given that they were in the same division as Montreal, who had Roy, and the additional language barrier for Jagr, it seems like Brodeur would have been a fine choice for them. Would have been interesting to see how that turned out. The Nords needed help in goal, as neither they nor their goalies (Tugnutt, Fiset, etc.) were doing very well, so how would Brodeur have responded if he was put to the test at a younger age for a losing team?

That puts Jagr in Vancouver, which seems like a better fit. The Canucks would have been able to send out separate lines with Jagr and Bure, with an improving team in a weaker division. Would have been interesting to see how that played out as well, whether he puts them over the top ~'92-94 and what direction they take after that (rather than Mogilny & Messier).

vadim sharifijanov 12-11-2012 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Czech Your Math (Post 56445625)
Good points for the most part. I think Quebec was one of the more unique situations. Given that they were in the same division as Montreal, who had Roy, and the additional language barrier for Jagr, it seems like Brodeur would have been a fine choice for them. Would have been interesting to see how that turned out. The Nords needed help in goal, as neither they nor their goalies (Tugnutt, Fiset, etc.) were doing very well, so how would Brodeur have responded if he was put to the test at a younger age for a losing team?

That puts Jagr in Vancouver, which seems like a better fit. The Canucks would have been able to send out separate lines with Jagr and Bure, with an improving team in a weaker division. Would have been interesting to see how that played out as well, whether he puts them over the top ~'92-94 and what direction they take after that (rather than Mogilny & Messier).

i don't know that brodeur would have gotten to the NHL any sooner on quebec rather than NJ. it's not like terreri and billington were world beating superstars preventing brodeur from cracking the lineup. i just don't think he was ready until '94. (i don't know how far back TDDM's devils memory goes, but maybe he can chime in here?)

brodeur was 21 when he became a starter. by that point the nordiques were a pretty decent team, having won the adams division in '93 and were probably just a good goalie away from making the playoffs again. the nords win their division again in '95, then the cup in '96. seems like brodeur's development rate would have been right in step with that young team's.

and also, one wonders even without nolan whether the nords could have gotten ozolinsh from the sharks for thibault. his stock was sky high when he was drafted. hell, if they'd packaged sundin with thibault, could they have gotten rob blake from the kings? (the kings had two other very good young defensemen in zhitnik and sydor, and boy did they need an upgrade in net.)

jack mullet 12-11-2012 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TAnnala (Post 56444891)
I am actually having hard time of deciding between Brodeur and Jagr. In retrospect, Jagr will probably give you better peak performance but Brodeur has been very loyal to his team. Something Jagr can't say.

Better player is Jagr but if I would be a GM the best choice would be Brodeur by far. Finding a arguably top-5 goalie of all time with 20-year career is something every single General Manager dreams about. One of the biggest things you will get canned for is taken care of for the rest of your own career.

good points, maybe one of the reasons NJ was able to be successful all these years. they never had to "waste" a draft pick or trade for a goalie. they were always able to build the team from goal-out.

Czech Your Math 12-11-2012 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov (Post 56462923)
i don't know that brodeur would have gotten to the NHL any sooner on quebec rather than NJ. it's not like terreri and billington were world beating superstars preventing brodeur from cracking the lineup. i just don't think he was ready until '94. (i don't know how far back TDDM's devils memory goes, but maybe he can chime in here?)

brodeur was 21 when he became a starter. by that point the nordiques were a pretty decent team, having won the adams division in '93 and were probably just a good goalie away from making the playoffs again. the nords win their division again in '95, then the cup in '96. seems like brodeur's development rate would have been right in step with that young team's.

and also, one wonders even without nolan whether the nords could have gotten ozolinsh from the sharks for thibault. his stock was sky high when he was drafted. hell, if they'd packaged sundin with thibault, could they have gotten rob blake from the kings? (the kings had two other very good young defensemen in zhitnik and sydor, and boy did they need an upgrade in net.)

I guess it was my impression that NJ planned not to rush Brodeur, while Quebec didn't have much of a plan in goal... unless you consider 7 goalies getting a decision in '90 (and 5 in '91) a plan. John Tanner was a 3rd rounder who played a game at age 18 in '89, then got 5 decisions in '90 and 12 in '91. I can't see them waiting very long to at least try Brodeur out for a few games, after that it would depend on how he played. I agree that TDMM could probably shed some light on the goalie situation in NJ. They traded Burke for Holik after '92, so it's clear they were confident in Brodeur's ability to take over in goal.

tony d 12-12-2012 10:48 AM

Top 10:

1) Jagr
2) Brodeur
3) Tkachuk
4) Zubov
5) Weight
6) Bondra
7) Hatcher
8) Nolan
9) Zhamnov
10) Lang

seventieslord 12-12-2012 02:17 PM

Chris Simon over Mikael Renberg? yikes...

seventieslord 12-12-2012 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 56445243)
1 - Martin Brodeur (Quebec)
2 - Jaromir Jagr (Vancouver)
3 - Sergei Zubov (Detroit)
4 - Derian Hatcher (Philadelphie)
5 - Doug Weight (Pittsburgh)
6 - Keith Tkachuk (NY Islanders)
7 - Owen Nolan (Los Angeles)
8 - Petr Bondra (Minnesota)
9 - Viacheslav Kozlov (Washington)
10 - Darryl Sydor (Toronto)
11 - Felix Potvin (Calgary)
12 - Mike Ricci (Montreal)
13 - Keith Primeau (NY Rangers)
14 - Petr Nedved (Buffalo)
15 - Alexei Zhamnov (Hartford)
16 - Craig Conroy Chicago
17 - Geoff Sanderson(Edmonton)
18 - Bryan Smolinski (Vancouver)
19 - Robert Lang (Winnipeg)
20 - Mikael Renberg (New Jersey)
21 - Richard Smehlik (Boston)

I'm going to assume you didn't forget anyone too good here and work from your list.

- Jagr over Brodeur, obviously.

- Tkachuk over Weight.

- Not sure how Primeau goes below Potvin and Ricci.

- Lang and Zhamnov pretty much belong next to eachother.

- I think Renberg delivered more value than Sanderson and Smolinksi.

otherwise, pretty solid.

Strong Island 12-12-2012 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jack mullet (Post 56463663)
good points, maybe one of the reasons NJ was able to be successful all these years. they never had to "waste" a draft pick or trade for a goalie. they were always able to build the team from goal-out.

Except they wasted their first rounders in '97 and '99 on goalies.


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