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-   -   Is Crosby overrated? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1306659)

livewell68 12-11-2012 08:49 PM

Is Crosby overrated?
 
I bet this a dead horse and has been discussed many times on hfboards within various topics.

I want to know what people who have been watching hockey since the 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's think of Crosby.

Some claim he has already surpassed Yzerman, Sakic, Forsberg and even Jagr's career.

Do you believe this to be true?

I personally rank him among the top 50-60 greatest players of all time.

Please discuss.

Krishna 12-11-2012 09:08 PM

Leaving my bias out of it, but yes, I agree.

You would think that he averages 2 ppg with the way a lot of people talk about how he is far and away the best player in the league. Malkin is pretty close and a few others aren't far behind. We'll just have to wait and see what happens over the rest of his career

Rhiessan71 12-11-2012 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by livewell68 (Post 56466447)
I bet this a dead horse and has been discussed many times on hfboards within various topics.

I want to know what people who have been watching hockey since the 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's think of Crosby.

Some claim he has already surpassed Yzerman, Sakic, Forsberg and even Jagr's career.

Do you believe this to be true?

I personally rank him among the top 50-60 greatest players of all time.

Please discuss.

He is on pace to pass Yzerman/Sakic and he has a chance at possibly equaling Jagr.

He still has a loooooooong way to go to accomplish either.

tarheelhockey 12-11-2012 10:29 PM

Who on earth is arguing that he's surpassed Jagr's career?

Bear of Bad News 12-11-2012 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by livewell68 (Post 56466447)
Some claim he has already surpassed Yzerman, Sakic, Forsberg and even Jagr's career.

Please define "some", unless your intent is for us to beat away at strawmen all night long.

Saku11 12-11-2012 11:29 PM

Underrated. Ammount of haters is bigger than the fans.

Regal 12-11-2012 11:46 PM

As others have said here, he definitely hasn't passed any of those players career-wise, though he's probably not too far from Forsberg, and I haven't really seen anyone suggest as much. He has been compared to those players in "better player" polls, however, which is a bit different, and pretty fair for everyone except probably Jagr.

As for if he's overrated, I think it comes down to how you want to view a player. Some people really focus on individual seasons, in which case he doesn't fare particularly well. He doesn't really have that iconic season like Yzerman in '89 or Sakic in '01, and while his Art Ross and Rocket Richard seasons were very good, I don't think they match up to the best of his contemporaries Malkin and Ovechkin. It looked like '11 would have been his year, but the concussion ruined it as well as last season, and the lockout is taking away even more time as we speak. If you want to look at top seasons, his trophy case and finishes don't quite match up to his reputation.

However, if you look at his entire body of work over 400+ games, you see a guy who has been among the top three PPG leaders every season since his rookie year, has the best PPG post-lockout by a large margin, the best APG post-lockout, the fifth best GPG post lockout, the third most total points and assists in considerably less number of games. There's not many players that come around that have the ability to compete for the Art Ross year in year out, but, injuries aside, he's one of them. Prime Sakic, Yzerman and Forsberg were similar, though slightly less prolific imo. Those that value these numbers are going to see him as properly rated.

As well, Crosby started at a younger age than those other players, creating expectations that he had an even higher level. He was the youngest scoring champion ever, which is going to cause quite a stir. He hasn't really hit that expected level yet, except for his half season in '11, which I think has actually caused an interesting dynamic. It seems to have caused some people to overreact and project unreasonably massive points totals, which in turn has caused others to undermine his abilities by judging his season by season performances too harshly to the point where it seems they lose sight of the fact that even if he's not going to continue those averages, his numbers before that still put him atop the league.

pdd 12-12-2012 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 (Post 56469115)
He is on pace to pass Yzerman/Sakic and he has a chance at possibly equaling Jagr.

He still has a loooooooong way to go to accomplish either.

Crosby's first seven seasons are comparable to Yzerman's first six in production. That said, Yzerman started out slow.

If Crosby posts an average 75 games and 110-115 points per season for five years, he'll match the next five years on the Yzerman docket.

Plural 12-12-2012 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by livewell68 (Post 56466447)
I bet this a dead horse and has been discussed many times on hfboards within various topics.

I want to know what people who have been watching hockey since the 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's think of Crosby.

Some claim he has already surpassed Yzerman, Sakic, Forsberg and even Jagr's career.

Do you believe this to be true?

I personally rank him among the top 50-60 greatest players of all time.

Please discuss.

Who has made this claim? I hang around quite a lot in the general discussion board and literally never read this.

I think Crosby is tad overrated by some, criminally overrated by some, tad underrated by some and criminally underrated by some. Hard to say where he belongs right now, since the injuries and lockout have made it impossible to see him perform. I guess talent-wise he has proven to be in the upper echelon of forwards. Career wise he does not crack the top-100 spot.

LAX attack* 12-12-2012 12:56 AM

I think Crosby has this mystique that definetly is not backed up by his performance. A major contributor to this is the statistically anomalous 2005-2007~08 period of hockey. Also what does it say that, the one time the Pens win the cup, their other center is clearly the better player? How many times did the best player in the world end up not being the best player on his own team?

Rhiessan71 12-12-2012 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regal (Post 56471529)
As well, Crosby started at a younger age than those other players, creating expectations that he had an even higher level.

Yzerman also played as an 18 year old, in his draft year.


Quote:

Originally Posted by eva unit zero (Post 56472063)
Crosby's first seven seasons are comparable to Yzerman's first six in production. That said, Yzerman started out slow.

If Crosby posts an average 75 games and 110-115 points per season for five years, he'll match the next five years on the Yzerman docket.

Which is exactly what I said.
He's on pace to.
Not sure if he will match Yzerman's absolute peak but he is looking good so far to match his overall peak.
But still has a loooong way to go to match Stevie's career. A lot more than just 5 more years my friend.

FakeKidPoker* 12-12-2012 01:24 AM

He is overrated.

But he is the best player in the game...

Go figure that one out.

Crosby is an odd one.... the media proclaims him as god there was simply no stopping that hype train it is always the Crosby show... constantly refered to as the best player in the game even though it was clear for their first 4 or 5 years in the league Ovechkin was a step above him.

I think Crosby if he doesn't have too many more injuries can surpass the careers of Sakic and Yzerman for sure... but i'm doubtful he can catch Messier or Jagr career wise.

and please... please do not bring up Gretzky or Lemieux, please.. he never stood a chance at ever being close to them.

MadArcand 12-12-2012 02:25 AM

He's on pace to end up with a better Forsberg career. Sakic? Don't think so, ditto with Yzerman, not unless his health improves dramatically.

Regal 12-12-2012 03:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 (Post 56472705)
Yzerman also played as an 18 year old, in his draft year.

Sorry, I meant in terms of being an elite level scorer. As an 18 year old Crosby was only three points back of Ovechkin, the third place scorer and one back of Alfredsson and Heatley who were tied for fourth and fifth, then won the Art Ross at 19, as the youngest scoring champion ever. Yzerman was a good player at 18, but wasn't among the top level scorers til he was 22, while Sakic was a top 10 scorer at 20 and 21, but wasn't a consistent top 5-ish guy until he was 25.

Regal 12-12-2012 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eva unit zero (Post 56472063)
Crosby's first seven seasons are comparable to Yzerman's first six in production. That said, Yzerman started out slow.

If Crosby posts an average 75 games and 110-115 points per season for five years, he'll match the next five years on the Yzerman docket.

Crosby's first 6 years are easily better than Yzerman's unless you put massive emphasis on his '89 season. And those numbers are basically what Yzerman averaged in a much higher scoring era, so I'm not sure why Crosby would have to match them

TheDevilMadeMe 12-12-2012 04:24 AM

He's one way of figuring out who had the best seasons. Based on conversations during All Time Drafts, I've come to the conclusion that the 5th best scorer in the NHL has as close to constant value as you can find since expansion. If you compare to the first or second best scorer, you often run into outliers (like Mario/Wayne/Steve in 1989).

This is how Crosby finished compared to the #5 scorer over the course of his career. Note that the on pace numbers assume Crosby/Yzerman plays all 82 games at his pace and doesn't assume health for any other player, so it is awfully generous.

2006: 99%
2007: 118%
2008: 75% (on pace for 99%)
2009: 110%
2010: 115%
2011: 72% (on pace for 145%)
2012: 45% (on pace for 166%)

Here are Yzerman's first 7 years

1984: 74%
1985: 74%
1986: 34% (on pace for 54%)
1987: 86%
1988: 92% (on pace for 115%)
1989: 135%
1990: 112%

Here's the rest of Yzerman's offensive peak peak:

1991: 99%
1992: 96%
1993: 104%
1994: 76% (on pace for 111%)

Yzerman's 1988-89 was probably the best season either player had, but overall, Crosby has a significantly better resume in his first 7 seasons and a better offensive prime overall. Now if only Crosby can stay reasonably healthy...

GuineaPig 12-12-2012 04:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 (Post 56472495)
I think Crosby has this mystique that definetly is not backed up by his performance. A major contributor to this is the statistically anomalous 2005-2007~08 period of hockey. Also what does it say that, the one time the Pens win the cup, their other center is clearly the better player? How many times did the best player in the world end up not being the best player on his own team?

I would argue that Malkin wasn't better than Crosby in 2009, let alone clearly better like you claim.

FakeKidPoker* 12-12-2012 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuineaPig (Post 56473799)
I would argue that Malkin wasn't better than Crosby in 2009, let alone clearly better like you claim.

Malkin was a fair bit better than Crosby in their cup run.

Especially in the Final.

Regal 12-12-2012 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FakeKidPoker (Post 56473819)
Malkin was a fair bit better than Crosby in their cup run.

Especially in the Final.

I think there's an argument. Crosby was better the first two rounds, Malkin the last two. Even still, this shouldnt be a knock on Crosby. Malkin at his best is a two time Art Ross winner and an all time level talent in his own right. Messier beat Gretzky for the Smythe in Edmonton's first cup win, Potvin didn't win a Smythe in any of the Islanders wins, and Lafleur and Robinson were beat out by Gainey in one of Montreal's wins. There's no shame in being beaten out by another great player, and not being the best player in a cup run doesn't mean you're not still the best player on the team.

Fredrik_71 12-12-2012 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadArcand (Post 56473345)
He's on pace to end up with a better Forsberg career. Sakic? Don't think so, ditto with Yzerman, not unless his health improves dramatically.

This. I think Crosby will become a "what if" player. It looks like a Lindros/Kariya/Forsberg career with his concussions. He probably will have another go at it and call it quits after another concussion.

Darth Yoda 12-12-2012 08:35 AM

As a Penguin fan i feel quite certain in my belief that at least his headthing is out of the picture now and that what we're gonna see from Crosby when NHL-hockey is back is the without a doubt best player in hockey, for the next five years at least. If someone wants to overrate him at that, it's their problem.

Wrigley 12-12-2012 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fredrik_71 (Post 56474649)
This. I think Crosby will become a "what if" player. It looks like a Lindros/Kariya/Forsberg career with his concussions. He probably will have another go at it and call it quits after another concussion.

Agreed. He's a top 120 player, but between his health and lockouts he will not be considered a top 60 player when he retires by hockey historians.

mpp9 12-12-2012 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FakeKidPoker (Post 56473819)
Malkin was a fair bit better than Crosby in their cup run.

Especially in the Final.

Matchups? Sid had Zetterberg and Lidstrom to play against all series. I can guarantee you Malkin would not have had a very good series statistically either if he had those two lining up against him.

With Staal's departure, it's now possible to give both Sid and Geno proper talent to play with. Going to be a lot harder to shut them down in playoff hockey.

dr robbie 12-12-2012 09:12 AM

Pens fan...

Yes, he's over-rated by some. People tend to think he's passed some hockey greats' careers already. The truth is that he has the POTENTIAL to do so and definitely has the skill to do so.

Anyone remember the crazy hype of Lindros back in the 90s? Scarely similar to the hype around Crosby (even though they are quite different players). Now, don't get me wrong, I have extremely high hopes for Crosby and that he can be one of the all-time greats, but many people tend to believe or act like he's done it already, which is not true. That would make him over-rated by the uneducated fan. I believe many people that know hockey can admit his potential and talent and he's rated correctly by them (not the haters - they're just idiots :P)

jack mullet 12-12-2012 10:25 AM

overrated? i think so. as much media attention this guys gets, people seem to forget the guy has "only" won ONE scoring title, and ONE league MVP in.....7 years.

it is becoming easier everyday to argue he is not even the best player of the post-lockout era.

Crosby has not come close to passing Jagr, and probably never will at this point. heck Crosby isn't pass Malkin at this point.


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