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-   -   Proposal: Predators - Flames (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1306955)

HockeyFan100 12-12-2012 01:23 PM

Predators - Flames
 
To
:nashville
Jay Bouwmeester
2014 2nd pick

To
:flames
David Legwand
Kevin Klein

---
Flames get a decent top-6 center, a good d-man pairing for Wideman. Preds get a defenseman to (somewhat) replace Suter, with a 2nd draft round pick added.

Top 6 Spaling 12-12-2012 01:24 PM

No chance. A deal has been discussed around Blum+3rd for JBo, but that's as high as I'm willing to go. At their $$$, especially in a money challenged market, I'm not sure I wouldn't just take Klein over JBo, so no chance I add Leggy.

blinkman360 12-12-2012 01:28 PM

Nashville would never go for that. Especially after the contract they gave Weber.

InfinityIggy 12-12-2012 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HockeyFan100 (Post 56482269)
To
:nashville
Jay Bouwmeester
2014 2nd pick

To
:flames
David Legwand
Kevin Klein

---
Flames get a decent top-6 center, a good d-man pairing for Wideman. Preds get a defenseman to (somewhat) replace Suter, with a 2nd draft round pick added.

No, no no no no. Bringing in Legwand to patch our Center, while opening a bigger hole on D is not a solution for the Flames. We also give up a pick? Massive pass.

If Bouw is moved, the team is quite likely getting blown up in the near future, so we need good young players. Ellis, Blum ect.

I think we have had this exact thread before and the consensus ended up being something around Blum and anything from a Conditional 1st to a 3rd.

preds1 12-12-2012 04:14 PM

Legwand has a NTC and will more than likely retire a Pred.
No way we give up Klein, especially with the solid contract extension.

I'll pass.

TheHudlinator 12-12-2012 04:51 PM

I would pass we can't keep giving away 2nd round picks and Legwand is just a patch not a solution to our center problems.

SmellOfVictory 12-12-2012 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blinkman360 (Post 56482469)
Nashville would never go for that. Especially after the contract they gave Weber.

I think that contract is the kicker. Nashville probably can't afford anymore large contract of any sort with the insane financial burden they've taken on over the first couple of years of that contract.

Guido Sarducci 12-12-2012 07:36 PM

Flames say YES. I stopped reading after Bouwmeester. Have fun Nashville.

Puckgenius* 12-12-2012 08:03 PM

Id trade JayBo for Klein straight up.

Devilspuppet666 12-12-2012 10:53 PM

no.... im expecting a better performance from jay-bo with the addition of wideman and hopefully brodie stepping into a top 4 role next year (i dont think there will be a this season, and this is a great chance to develop and to work with ward). i also think a offensive orientated system (that Hartley should bring) will help bring him to 35-40 points




AND i dont believe lewgand wound help us... we have cammy who did well last season in that position, backlund (who i think will get a big chance to prove himself), and a HUGE ? in cervenka (who i hope will sign with us again, although he might be miffed about the lockout......)

also i would want stajan (dont care if hes not as good) or horak on the third line C

ThirdManIn 12-13-2012 04:57 PM

Value is way off from Nashville's perspective.

StanJonathan* 12-16-2012 08:27 PM

I love these bowmeester threads. Everyone seriously undervalues Bowmeester. Yes hes not a 50-60 point Def man recently, however there is way more to look at than just his stats. First off Look at his defence partner. Now Im not meaning to run him down but Butler is a first line defence man?? In Florida Bowmeester was able to do his run and gun style that comes naturally to him as he was pair with guys like Mcabe, Ballard, Montador just a few of his partners. they are seasoned Defencemen who might not be the superstars to the league were still very comfortable holding back to allow Bowmeester to do his thing. Bowmeester had never had to play very defensively until he came to Calgary. He was then thrown into a complete different style than he had ever played and on top of that he was paired with a guy who couldnt crack Buffalo''s lineup and they were put on the first line as the defensive shutdown men. I understand Calgary had to spread the wealth of D as they really only had Giordano and Bowmeester but people expected him to get 50 points? His first year there was only 2 Flames who broke the 50 point barrier. The same thing the year after. On a team with so few point producing players how would anyone expect him to produce like he did in florida? Also Bowmeester was deployed mainly in the PK allowing Giordano to play the PP predominately. So how does a guy who comes to a team where only 2 people crack 50 points doesnt get alot of PP time and who is lined up with a guy who struggled who struggled to make a team in the bottom paring come out looking like an all star? He doesnt. Every Superstar Def in the league look at their partners. (Weber - Suter - Blum - Ellis (well see what happens now weber and Suter are seperate), (D Keith - Seabrook - Hjalmarrsson), (Kronwall - Lidstrom), (Mcdonagh -Girardi - Delzotto - Staal), (Yandal - D Morris - OML - Michalek), (Vlasic Boyle Burns), (Hamhuis - Bieksa - Edler), (Green - Carlson - Alzner), (Byfuglien - Enstrom - Bogosian) Doughty, Johnson (I know he left but look at Doughtys points since) Scuderi - Mitchell. Bowmeester is still one hell of a defensman, the fact that he takes all the critisism and every game he comes out and skates hard giving his best speaks volumes as well. There is no way in hell I let him go for anything less than a 1C or a top 4 D and a good prospect. If he gets matched up with Gio or Wideman this year everyone will finally see what he can actually do.

Guido Sarducci 12-20-2012 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kresco (Post 56605075)
I love these bowmeester threads. Everyone seriously undervalues Bowmeester. Yes hes not a 50-60 point Def man recently, however there is way more to look at than just his stats.

His intangibles?:laugh:

LatvianTwist 12-20-2012 10:17 PM

How does this help either team...?

WhiteLight* 12-20-2012 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kresco (Post 56605075)
I love these bowmeester threads. Everyone seriously undervalues Bowmeester. Yes hes not a 50-60 point Def man recently, however there is way more to look at than just his stats. First off Look at his defence partner. Now Im not meaning to run him down but Butler is a first line defence man?? In Florida Bowmeester was able to do his run and gun style that comes naturally to him as he was pair with guys like Mcabe, Ballard, Montador just a few of his partners. they are seasoned Defencemen who might not be the superstars to the league were still very comfortable holding back to allow Bowmeester to do his thing. Bowmeester had never had to play very defensively until he came to Calgary. He was then thrown into a complete different style than he had ever played and on top of that he was paired with a guy who couldnt crack Buffalo''s lineup and they were put on the first line as the defensive shutdown men. I understand Calgary had to spread the wealth of D as they really only had Giordano and Bowmeester but people expected him to get 50 points? His first year there was only 2 Flames who broke the 50 point barrier. The same thing the year after. On a team with so few point producing players how would anyone expect him to produce like he did in florida? Also Bowmeester was deployed mainly in the PK allowing Giordano to play the PP predominately. So how does a guy who comes to a team where only 2 people crack 50 points doesnt get alot of PP time and who is lined up with a guy who struggled who struggled to make a team in the bottom paring come out looking like an all star? He doesnt. Every Superstar Def in the league look at their partners. (Weber - Suter - Blum - Ellis (well see what happens now weber and Suter are seperate), (D Keith - Seabrook - Hjalmarrsson), (Kronwall - Lidstrom), (Mcdonagh -Girardi - Delzotto - Staal), (Yandal - D Morris - OML - Michalek), (Vlasic Boyle Burns), (Hamhuis - Bieksa - Edler), (Green - Carlson - Alzner), (Byfuglien - Enstrom - Bogosian) Doughty, Johnson (I know he left but look at Doughtys points since) Scuderi - Mitchell. Bowmeester is still one hell of a defensman, the fact that he takes all the critisism and every game he comes out and skates hard giving his best speaks volumes as well. There is no way in hell I let him go for anything less than a 1C or a top 4 D and a good prospect. If he gets matched up with Gio or Wideman this year everyone will finally see what he can actually do.

LOL. This huge post just to rag on Butler. Butler was better than J-Bo last year. Better.



Butler played 89% of his even strength time with JBo. JBo only 67% of his time with Butler because Butler missed some games.

If they played 100% of the time together, the following stats would be equal for both. The differences come from their time apart, a bigger amount for JBo.



Butler and Bouw both played against top lines.
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...4+25+26+27+28#

Both had the lowest % of zone starts in the offensive zone
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...4+25+26+27+28#

So both were used defensively very much.



Bouwmeester was on for 50 goals for. Butler for 47. Despite Butler playing 14 less games than Bouw.
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...4+25+26+27+28#

So, Butler was on for more goals for per ice time than Bouw. The difference is quite high actually. Therefore Butler is better offensively.
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...4+25+26+27+28#

(Again, remember that their numbers would be identical if they played 100% of the time together. They played a lot together, so Butler being that much higher indicates he carried JBo, as JBo was very very low in limited time without him)



JBo was on the ice for 66 goals against, Butler for 51.
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...4+25+26+27+28#

If adjusted for total ice time, they are roughly the same. They give up the same amount of goals per ice time.
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...4+25+26+27+28#

So, they're pretty much the same defensively. Bouw did not improve when he was away from Butler. Not at all.



If we consider both offense and defense, Butler > Bouwmeester. In fact Bouw has the worst all around numbers on his whole team (though playing against top lines is a huge disadvantage, one which Butler shares though)
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...4+25+26+27+28#

In fact, the Flames performed best when Bouw was Off the ice
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...4+25+26+27+28#




Boom, huge post showing Butler > Bouwmeester in 2011-12.

Also, Butler had more hits and 3 less blocked shots in 14 less games for all you simple folk out there.

Machinehead 12-20-2012 11:07 PM

Disgusting offer. I'd rather have Klein than Bouwmeester.

ESH 12-21-2012 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows (Post 56710891)
LOL. This huge post just to rag on Butler. Butler was better than J-Bo last year. Better.



Butler played 89% of his even strength time with JBo. JBo only 67% of his time with Butler because Butler missed some games.

If they played 100% of the time together, the following stats would be equal for both. The differences come from their time apart, a bigger amount for JBo.



Butler and Bouw both played against top lines.
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...4+25+26+27+28#

Both had the lowest % of zone starts in the offensive zone
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...4+25+26+27+28#

So both were used defensively very much.



Bouwmeester was on for 50 goals for. Butler for 47. Despite Butler playing 14 less games than Bouw.
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...4+25+26+27+28#

So, Butler was on for more goals for per ice time than Bouw. The difference is quite high actually. Therefore Butler is better offensively.
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...4+25+26+27+28#

(Again, remember that their numbers would be identical if they played 100% of the time together. They played a lot together, so Butler being that much higher indicates he carried JBo, as JBo was very very low in limited time without him)



JBo was on the ice for 66 goals against, Butler for 51.
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...4+25+26+27+28#

If adjusted for total ice time, they are roughly the same. They give up the same amount of goals per ice time.
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...4+25+26+27+28#

So, they're pretty much the same defensively. Bouw did not improve when he was away from Butler. Not at all.



If we consider both offense and defense, Butler > Bouwmeester. In fact Bouw has the worst all around numbers on his whole team (though playing against top lines is a huge disadvantage, one which Butler shares though)
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...4+25+26+27+28#

In fact, the Flames performed best when Bouw was Off the ice
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...4+25+26+27+28#




Boom, huge post showing Butler > Bouwmeester in 2011-12.

Also, Butler had more hits and 3 less blocked shots in 14 less games for all you simple folk out there.

Saying that Butler is better offensively than Bouwmeester because he was on for more goals for is ridiculous.

thadd 12-21-2012 01:06 AM

If J-Bo could play center, Nashville would be all over this.

thadd 12-21-2012 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kresco (Post 56605075)
I love these bowmeester threads. Everyone seriously undervalues Bowmeester. Yes hes not a 50-60 point Def man recently, however there is way more to look at than just his stats. First off Look at his defence partner. Now Im not meaning to run him down but Butler is a first line defence man?? In Florida Bowmeester was able to do his run and gun style that comes naturally to him as he was pair with guys like Mcabe, Ballard, Montador just a few of his partners. they are seasoned Defencemen who might not be the superstars to the league were still very comfortable holding back to allow Bowmeester to do his thing. Bowmeester had never had to play very defensively until he came to Calgary. He was then thrown into a complete different style than he had ever played and on top of that he was paired with a guy who couldnt crack Buffalo''s lineup and they were put on the first line as the defensive shutdown men. I understand Calgary had to spread the wealth of D as they really only had Giordano and Bowmeester but people expected him to get 50 points? His first year there was only 2 Flames who broke the 50 point barrier. The same thing the year after. On a team with so few point producing players how would anyone expect him to produce like he did in florida? Also Bowmeester was deployed mainly in the PK allowing Giordano to play the PP predominately. So how does a guy who comes to a team where only 2 people crack 50 points doesnt get alot of PP time and who is lined up with a guy who struggled who struggled to make a team in the bottom paring come out looking like an all star? He doesnt. Every Superstar Def in the league look at their partners. (Weber - Suter - Blum - Ellis (well see what happens now weber and Suter are seperate), (D Keith - Seabrook - Hjalmarrsson), (Kronwall - Lidstrom), (Mcdonagh -Girardi - Delzotto - Staal), (Yandal - D Morris - OML - Michalek), (Vlasic Boyle Burns), (Hamhuis - Bieksa - Edler), (Green - Carlson - Alzner), (Byfuglien - Enstrom - Bogosian) Doughty, Johnson (I know he left but look at Doughtys points since) Scuderi - Mitchell. Bowmeester is still one hell of a defensman, the fact that he takes all the critisism and every game he comes out and skates hard giving his best speaks volumes as well. There is no way in hell I let him go for anything less than a 1C or a top 4 D and a good prospect. If he gets matched up with Gio or Wideman this year everyone will finally see what he can actually do.

I'm not even going to read past the 2nd sentence there.

Who on earth is going to read a paragraph that large? Do you even want people to read what you're typing?

SmellOfVictory 12-21-2012 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guido Sarducci (Post 56710059)
His intangibles?:laugh:

Statistics are notoriously bad at measuring defensive contributions; particularly traditional stats. Advanced stats are better, but they're not perfect either.

WhiteLight* 12-21-2012 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ESH (Post 56712531)
Saying that Butler is better offensively than Bouwmeester because he was on for more goals for is ridiculous.

OK. Sure. Maybe the Flames went cold when Butler was out of the lineup and Bouwmeester played with someone else. Maybe they went cold and it wasn't Bouw's fault.

Butler still has better offensive numbers and equal defensive numbers, despite having the same responsibility.

Saying Bouwmeester was dragged down by Butler is equally ridiculous.

Face it guys, Bouw is awful. #4 D at best on a good team. No brains, no intensity, no heart. Huge contract. No team in their right mind would want a #4 D with that baggage.

TheHudlinator 12-21-2012 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows (Post 56720001)
OK. Sure. Maybe the Flames went cold when Butler was out of the lineup and Bouwmeester played with someone else. Maybe they went cold and it wasn't Bouw's fault.

Butler still has better offensive numbers and equal defensive numbers, despite having the same responsibility.

Saying Bouwmeester was dragged down by Butler is equally ridiculous.

Face it guys, Bouw is awful. #4 D at best on a good team. No brains, no intensity, no heart. Huge contract. No team in their right mind would want a #4 D with that baggage.

You mean around the time we also lost Tanguay, Glencross, and Cammy was in and out of the lineup hurt? I wonder how we never scored with Butler out :laugh:

Boom Boom Geoffrion* 12-21-2012 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thadd (Post 56712591)
I'm not even going to read past the 2nd sentence there.

Who on earth is going to read a paragraph that large? Do you even want people to read what you're typing?

All that paragraph would have done is encourage more people to read the nonsense that I just forced my way into.

My vision is blurry, and I dislike Jbo even more after reading someone trying to praise his intangibles and mock Butler when he clearly outplayed Jbo last year.

TylerSVT* 12-21-2012 02:43 PM

Id say no to this simply because i dont see much Value in what NSH is sending our way, plus were giving up a 2nd.

Doesnt really fill a need for the Flames either.

showtime8 12-21-2012 02:49 PM

What's with all the hate for Jay Bouwmeester?

I think that he's a good defenseman playing in a terrible system.


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