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-   -   greater goalscorer: Howe vs Bo.Hull vs Bossy vs Br.Hull vs Bure (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1308051)

intylerwetrust 12-14-2012 05:50 PM

greater goalscorer: Howe vs Bo.Hull vs Bossy vs Br.Hull vs Bure
 
who was it?

Rhiessan71 12-14-2012 05:58 PM

Easy one for me, it's Bobby Hull.
If he didn't go to the WHA, there's a very real chance that it would have been his name that Gretzky was trying to pass for total goals and not Howe's.

TheDevilMadeMe 12-14-2012 06:01 PM

Strange list of candidates. I'd have either Gretzky or Lemieux over any of Brett Hull, Mike Bossy, or Pavel Bure as a goal scorer alone.

Of the list, I'm going with Bobby Hull very narrowly over Gordie Howe.

habsfanatics 12-14-2012 06:03 PM

I'll go with Bobby Hull as well here.

I see a couple obvious omissions to your list though. The alltime leader in goals isn't even on it and the player I consider to be one of the purest goalscorer out of the bunch, Mario Lemieux.

Hawkey Town 18 12-14-2012 06:08 PM

1. Bobby
2. Howe
3. Bossy
4. Brett
5. Bure

jkrx 12-14-2012 08:08 PM

Bobby
Howe

Bossy



Brett/Bure

Czech Your Math 12-14-2012 09:58 PM

I'd go with Lemieux at his peak, but as far as this list (and probably prime and/or even strength goal scoring) there's no one better than Bobby Hull.

Hardyvan123 12-14-2012 11:17 PM

for me it was Bobby clearly ahead but then it got really close with the other 4 guys but I went

Bure
Bossy
Gordie
Brett

but really one could throw all 4 of them in a hat and they could come out in any order but as far as pure goal scoring goes Gordie might be 5th on this list

TheDevilMadeMe 12-14-2012 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 (Post 56556359)
for me it was Bobby clearly ahead but then it got really close with the other 4 guys but I went

Bure
Bossy
Gordie
Brett

but really one could throw all 4 of them in a hat and they could come out in any order but as far as pure goal scoring goes Gordie might be 5th on this list

Howe led the league in goals 5 times (including 3 in a row) and was 2nd 5 times. I see him only very slightly behind Bobby Hull as a goal scorer. Howe was a Maurice Richard away from leading the NHL in goals 7 times (including 5 in a row). Bobby Hull never faced a goal scorer as good as Maurice Richard.

I actually think there is an argument for Howe over Bobby Hull as just a goal scorer, but I would choose Bobby if I had to choose.

TAnnala 12-14-2012 11:40 PM

I voted for the best goal scorer of all-time. B. Hull

Although I also agree that Lemieux and Gretzky should be options too. I would probably take Hull before them anyways.

Czech Your Math 12-15-2012 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 56556403)
I actually think there is an argument for Howe over Bobby Hull as just a goal scorer, but I would choose Bobby if I had to choose.

Hull generally faced tougher competition and his prime adjusted goal totals are better. I would probably only have Howe in the top 5 on a career basis, but he's at/near the top there.

The Zetterberg Era 12-15-2012 05:50 AM

Bossy - .76 GPG
Bure - .62 GPG
Howe - .45 GPG (NHL) & .41 (WHL) together .44 GPG
Bobby Hull - .57 GPG (NHL) & .73 GPG (WHL) together .61 GPG
Brett Hull - .58 GPG

I went with Bossy, but the numbers do back it up. Bure and Bossy didn't have to go through a long decline they each really had one season where they were hurt at the end of their career far off their normal pace although Bure kind of has two. In any event Bossy's pace was just a lot higher at 573 goals in 752 games played. Only one year was he not a 50 goal scorer his last season and he scored 38.

He is tied with Gretzky for most 50+ goal seasons at 9, something Bossy did consecutively.
He is tied with Gretzky for most 60 goal seasons at 5
Highest goals-per-game average, career .76
Second all-time in career goals per game in the playoffs at .65 (Better than Gretzky trailing only Mario Lemieux)
Goals per game, regular season and playoffs combined, career: second all-time with .74 (Better than Gretzky actually at .747 trailing only Super Mario at .75)
career shooting percentage of 21.18%

As far as wingers go, he is the guy I would vote for and did. I am assuming the winger position is the reason for leaving off Gretzky and Lemieux.

http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=21408
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Bossy

Other players stats taking from eliteprospects.com pages and divided out accordingly.

habsfanatics 12-15-2012 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedWings19405 (Post 56560263)
Bossy - .76 GPG
Bure - .62 GPG
Howe - .45 GPG (NHL) & .41 (WHL) together .44 GPG
Bobby Hull - .57 GPG (NHL) & .73 GPG (WHL) together .61 GPG
Brett Hull - .58 GPG

I went with Bossy, but the numbers do back it up. Bure and Bossy didn't have to go through a long decline they each really had one season where they were hurt at the end of their career far off their normal pace although Bure kind of has two. In any event Bossy's pace was just a lot higher at 573 goals in 752 games played. Only one year was he not a 50 goal scorer his last season and he scored 38.

He is tied with Gretzky for most 50+ goal seasons at 9, something Bossy did consecutively.
He is tied with Gretzky for most 60 goal seasons at 5
Highest goals-per-game average, career .76
Second all-time in career goals per game in the playoffs at .65 (Better than Gretzky trailing only Mario Lemieux)
Goals per game, regular season and playoffs combined, career: second all-time with .74 (Better than Gretzky actually at .747 trailing only Super Mario at .75)
career shooting percentage of 21.18%

As far as wingers go, he is the guy I would vote for and did. I am assuming the winger position is the reason for leaving off Gretzky and Lemieux.

http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=21408
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Bossy

Other players stats taking from eliteprospects.com pages and divided out accordingly.

GPG average significantly benefits those with a shortened and prime only career.

Big Phil 12-15-2012 08:40 AM

Yeah, no doubt that Bure and Brett Hull are the clear inferiors of this bunch. Not that this is a bad thing. But Bure didn't have the elite seasons to be lumped up here and Hull was a little too late of a bloomer. I am awfully surprised Howe has 0 votes. I chose Bobby anyway but Howe should have votes before Bure or Brett, that's for sure. I agree with Gretzky and Lemieux as other options and I'll throw in Richard and Esposito as well. But even so, to me it always comes down to three of them: Bobby, Gretzky and Lemieux.

Hull was just simply better at goalscoring than anything else. Gretzky has the numbers, the fact that he trumped his peers in this regard and the fact that the only reason he stopped scoring at such a high pace is because he focused on assists more. Mario was just impossible to stop from scoring a goal as well and was at least as good of a playmaker as a goalscorer. It's really tough between these three.

Dennis Bonvie 12-15-2012 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 56548223)
Strange list of candidates. I'd have either Gretzky or Lemieux over any of Brett Hull, Mike Bossy, or Pavel Bure as a goal scorer alone.

Of the list, I'm going with Bobby Hull very narrowly over Gordie Howe.

I would think The Rocket should be included in a list of greatest goal scorers also.

He may be the best big goal scorer ever.

jack mullet 12-15-2012 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by intylerwetrust (Post 56547883)
who was it?

Gretzky

/Thread

jack mullet 12-15-2012 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jack mullet (Post 56561739)
Gretzky

/Thread

but if i had to choose from the list, Bossy. in10 seasons, his goals scored were:

53
69
51
68
64
60
51
58
61
38

averaged .76 goals per game, pretty sure thats an NHL record

Killion 12-15-2012 01:33 PM

Is there a reason why Gretzky & Lemieux were left off the list of candidates?...
Id absolutely go with Gretzky followed by Lemieux in numbers 1&2;

Bobby Hull
Mike Bossy
Brett Hull

and wheres Maurice Richard & Phil Esposito amongst others notably absent?

Dark Shadows 12-15-2012 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jack mullet (Post 56561781)
but if i had to choose from the list, Bossy. in10 seasons, his goals scored were:

53
69
51
68
64
60
51
58
61
38

averaged .76 goals per game, pretty sure thats an NHL record

Amazing to be sure. However, adjusted for era, Bobby Hull's numbers not only look better, but he won his goal scoring titles by huge margins over the next best guy.

TheDevilMadeMe 12-15-2012 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Czech Your Math (Post 56558919)
Hull generally faced tougher competition and his prime adjusted goal totals are better. I would probably only have Howe in the top 5 on a career basis, but he's at/near the top there.

Who did Hull face who was as good as the Rocket at scoring goals and scoring goals alone? Howe also faced prime Geoffrion and Ted Lindsay. For Hull, I see aging Beliveau and Frank Mahovlich who was stiffled in Toronto, etc. Part of the reason Bobby Hull led the league by such eye opening margins was because he was awesome, but part of the reason was that the league was lacking elite goal scorers in the early 60s.

I agree that the overall league depth was much better in the 60s than the early 50s, but I'm talking about goal scoring (not point production) and only at the high end.

This is nothing against Bobby Hull either, I did vote him in this poll after all. But the competition makes him look farther ahead of Howe than he really was, I think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie (Post 56561699)
I would think The Rocket should be included in a list of greatest goal scorers also.

He may be the best big goal scorer ever.

Agreed that Rocket is a candidate for lists like this.

The Zetterberg Era 12-15-2012 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killion (Post 56566427)
Is there a reason why Gretzky & Lemieux were left off the list of candidates?...

I am not going to speak for the guy who started the poll, but the five players listed are all wing position players. There isn't a center there, so that was my guess for why they were missing.

That still doesn't explain Richard not being here, not that I would vote him over a couple of these guys anyways.

pappyline 12-15-2012 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 56570039)
Who did Hull face who was as good as the Rocket at scoring goals and scoring goals alone? Howe also faced prime Geoffrion and Ted Lindsay. For Hull, I see aging Beliveau and Frank Mahovlich who was stiffled in Toronto, etc. Part of the reason Bobby Hull led the league by such eye opening margins was because he was awesome, but part of the reason was that the league was lacking elite goal scorers in the early 60s.

I agree that the overall league depth was much better in the 60s than the early 50s, but I'm talking about goal scoring (not point production) and only at the high end.

This is nothing against Bobby Hull either, I did vote him in this poll after all. But the competition makes him look farther ahead of Howe than he really was, I think.



Agreed that Rocket is a candidate for lists like this.

Actually, Hull only won 2 outright goal scoring championships in the early 60's and there was some pretty good goal scoring competition in those years. In 59-60 he finished in a tie with Horvath. In 61 he placed a poor 5th behind geoffrion (50), Big M (48), Moore, Beliveau. In 62, he did blow everyone away, In 63, he wasn't even a top 5 and Howe was the winner. In 64 he had 43 goals to beat out Wharram & Mikita at 39. In 65, he finished 2nd to Ullman (42).

In 66 he took off & started consistently winning and by big margins and that wasn't because the competition dropped off. Hull was just that good at his peak.

The Zetterberg Era 12-15-2012 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Shadows (Post 56568553)
Amazing to be sure. However, adjusted for era, Bobby Hull's numbers not only look better, but he won his goal scoring titles by huge margins over the next best guy.

Does he win them over Gretzky and Lemieux? You know because you have to believe if those guys were both options they would be running away with this poll. That is who Bossy went up against for the honor of leading the league there.

Dark Shadows 12-15-2012 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedWings19405 (Post 56572347)
Does he win them over Gretzky and Lemieux? You know because you have to believe if those guys were both options they would be running away with this poll. That is who Bossy went up against for the honor of leading the league there.

As far as goal scoring goes? Yes in some years. When comparing raw 80's totals, you need to look at several of Bobby's finishes and imagine them as 70-85 goal seasons.

Hardyvan123 12-15-2012 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 56556403)
Howe led the league in goals 5 times (including 3 in a row) and was 2nd 5 times. I see him only very slightly behind Bobby Hull as a goal scorer. Howe was a Maurice Richard away from leading the NHL in goals 7 times (including 5 in a row). Bobby Hull never faced a goal scorer as good as Maurice Richard.

I actually think there is an argument for Howe over Bobby Hull as just a goal scorer, but I would choose Bobby if I had to choose.

No doubt Howe is the better player but it's also way easier to lead the league in anything in a 6 team league compared to 22 plus.

Bure just screams goal scorer, and not much else, he leads the league 3 times and is top 5 2 other times despite not having a great setup man or PP QB.

35 goals as a 19 year old in Russia along with the 9 goals in 6 game performance at the 98 Olympics adds to his case IMO.

Injuries took away what might have been but his goal scoring rate was simply incredible and even more so for the era.

Maybe I just looked at the question the OP asked a little differently but goal scoring isn't the 1st thing that comes to mind for Howe, it's longevity and the Geordie Howe Hat trick, a goal, assist and a penalty.


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