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-   -   Gagner at 2c (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1308741)

Oi'll say! 12-16-2012 07:05 PM

Gagner at 2c
 
I see Gagner talk creeping into lots of threads, people talking about the #2 C spot as a weakness moving fwd.

I'll agree with anyone that he's not up there with the elite #2C's in the league if you consider P. Kane and Malkin #2 C's, but in terms of players who are legit #2 C's (Kesler, M. Richards, Marleau etc) I don't see Gagner as being a long shot to attaining elite #2c success.

Kelser at 23 had by far his best season to date, 37 points.

Marleau was a 2nd overall pick and had 52 points at 21 and 44 points at 22.

At 21 Mike Richards had 59gp, 32 pts, -12.

Gagner has produced far more points than any of these guys before he turned 23 and to date he has still played the bulk of his games with players under 20 years of age. I don't think I've ever heard of a rookie c coming in and playing his first 5 seasons almost exclusively with other u-20's.

49 points is actually a very respectable point total for a #2c if you look at the stats, if Gagner's offense doesn't even go up and he just gets a bit more consistant defensively I think he's good enough. But I still think he's on track to be better.

tiger_80 12-16-2012 07:18 PM

All of Kesler, Richards, and Marleau are bigger, stronger and much faster than Gagner. Gagner may hit 50 points at some point in his career, but he will never be on the same level with these guys defensively due to his physical limitations.

SK13 12-16-2012 07:44 PM

The big issue with Gagner at 2C is his redunancy in the line-up. If RNH was 6'3 and played like Mike Richards, it wouldn't be a problem.

I think it's a papercut issue, though. Doesn't crack the top-5 question-marks on this team.

okgooil 12-16-2012 08:23 PM

THe part that gets me the most is every one seems to be obbsessed with Gagners size. Like he would be the first NHL player that was small to have success. REally, as long as he works hard and plays smart he could be a great 2nd C. I don't care about his size. He still reminds me a lot of Marc Savard.

Arpeggio 12-16-2012 08:28 PM

I'm a big fan of Gagner, and think it would be a mistake to deal him. I think his best offensive seasons are still ahead of him. But the Oilers have to get bigger down the middle on the third and fourth lines if RNH and Gagner are the top two centers. Horcoff and Belanger don't physically intimidate anyone, and I think that's the main problem with the Oilers forwards.

OilFury 12-16-2012 09:17 PM

i dont mind gagner as 2nd c at all he has been a consistent producer and with adding a guy like yak to the lineup and hemsky playing so well he will probably have his best season yet.

we do need to add a Big center somewhere in the lineup IMO we have lander as our most NHL ready C not big but atleast he has good defensive upside

TBH there isnt much i want to see done right away i'd like to see how things playout with the current team and do some moves come trade deadline if we still have areas of concern then

only thing i would like is trading up to land Barkov.

Mr Forever 12-16-2012 09:45 PM

Ganger will never be a physical force, he'll probably never be a defensive stalwart, and I can't imagine him ever being strong, fast or gritty. He'll always be a pretty good offensively center who will get you 50 points but nothing much more.

nabob 12-16-2012 09:57 PM

The key to a championship lineup IMO is having players who fill roles and win matchups.

Gagner is basically a smaller, slower, weaker, less creative, less productive, less defensively aware version of RNH.

Still a good hockey player in many ways. Just not a good fit that has RNH, Eberle, Hemsky, Hall as 4 of the other 5 top 6 players.

Secondary scoring was a huge problem for the team last year and Gagner had massive issues with production and consistency unless he was paired with first line players that could make him look better.

SK13 12-16-2012 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nabob (Post 56608697)
The key to a championship lineup IMO is having players who fill roles and win matchups.

Gagner is basically a smaller, slower, weaker, less creative, less productive, less defensively aware version of RNH.

Still a good hockey player in many ways. Just not a good fit that has RNH, Eberle, Hemsky, Hall as 4 of the other 5 top 6 players.

Not that I disagree, but Hall?

What on earth do those two have in common?

nullterm 12-16-2012 10:09 PM

We need big nasty top six winger who plays hard and can score, and tougher bottom six & blue line. Gags as a 2C is fine. It's the rest of the roster below him on the charts that needs upgrades.

I mean if you get the chance to swap Gagner for J Staal, you do it, duh. But if I was sitting down as GM to write a plan to fix the team, Gags isn't the one I'm actively trying to dump for upgrades.

tiger_80 12-16-2012 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nullterm (Post 56609087)
We need big nasty top six winger who plays hard and can score, and tougher bottom six & blue line. Gags as a 2C is fine. It's the rest of the roster below him on the charts that needs upgrades.

I mean if you get the chance to swap Gagner for J Staal, you do it, duh. But if I was sitting down as GM to write a plan to fix the team, Gags isn't the one I'm actively trying to dump for upgrades.

Gagner won't be dealt until they find a better replacement. The problem is Jordan Staals do not grow on trees. On the other hand, while Gagner is centring our 2nd line, the team won't be a contender.

Baggers 12-16-2012 11:23 PM

I've been a Gagner supporter since day 1, but even I'll admit that he needs to take a step up this (next?) season.

If he doesn't, it's time the team looks in a new direction, through trade, FA, etc.

OilFury 12-16-2012 11:23 PM

Gagner will do well with hemsky and yak

those centers dont grow on trees but we could make a run to aquire Barkov, and being such a deep draft if we are able to land a top 20pick it would make trading up a lot easier..also depends on the teams who end up with those top few picks and what they are lacking in their clubs.

Barkov would make our top6 unreal IMO :p

nullterm 12-16-2012 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiger_80 (Post 56611757)
Gagner won't be dealt until they find a better replacement. The problem is Jordan Staals do not grow on trees. On the other hand, while Gagner is centring our 2nd line, the team won't be a contender.

I'd want a Bolland or Stoll at 3C before I worry about upgrading Gags at 2C. Top end checking center to shut down other teams top line and PK.

Metalcommand 12-16-2012 11:27 PM

Gagner is not adequate because he brings nothing else to the table. Sure, hell come and give those 40 points annually but after that there's nothing else.

tiger_80 12-16-2012 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nullterm (Post 56611931)
I'd want a Bolland or Stoll at 3C before I worry about upgrading Gags at 2C. Top end checking center to shut down other teams top line and PK.

Horcoff is an adequate checking centre. What they need is a two way guy who can help shoulder some ES load against other teams top lines.
It's not just Gagner who needs some serious sheltering. RNH does too.

nullterm 12-16-2012 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiger_80 (Post 56612027)
Horcoff is an adequate checking centre. What they need is a two way guy who can help shoulder some ES load against other teams top lines.
It's not just Gagner who needs some serious sheltering. RNH does too.

I like Horc, but his better days are behind him, if it was Horcoff younger and pre-injury then definitely. Maybe with less minutes he can get some of it back. Mind you, he's glued to the roster with his contract making him untradeable.

OilFury 12-17-2012 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiger_80 (Post 56612027)
Horcoff is an adequate checking centre. What they need is a two way guy who can help shoulder some ES load against other teams top lines.
It's not just Gagner who needs some serious sheltering. RNH does too.

Barkov? ^^


Horcoff checks?

Bergeron47 12-17-2012 12:48 AM

M'eh, if we could be 1 game away from the Stanley Cup with Horcoff-Stoll as our 1-2 punch, RNH-Gagner isn't THAT bad. In a perfect world we can replace Gagner with a bigger center, but if we added a big, strong, nasty talented winger to balance out that 2nd line, there's be a lot less Gagner hate.
Would people still complain about Gagner if the lines were:
Hall-RNH-Eberle
Yakupov-Gagner-Lucic

Broilers 12-17-2012 04:26 AM

Development process will continue
 
He has produced very good numbers and still just 23. We will see after two years where he is at. I think we can contend and keep Gagner as 2nd line center with Hartikainen and Yakobov.

I would keep Gagner anyway he will be elite 3rd line center when Horcoff is released.
My question is how we can get better center man.

Let's look at the system

VandeVelde number 4 or 5 center
Lander number 4 center
Pitlick minor leaguer/4th line winger
Some? like Ewanyk, Martindale

We do not have even potential 3rd line center in our system.

Trade route is expensive it will cost several 1st round picks a good prospect and number2 dman or 2nd line winger

Tarus 12-17-2012 05:08 AM

People are too focused on what he isn't instead of what he is, and that is one of only 2 centers in the entire organization that has any ability(including the potential) to put up points at the NHL level. The Oilers are no where close to worrying about "championship team" stuff, and are in no position to be giving up on good young organizationally developed players in the pursuit of a nebulous idea of what a second line center is supposed to be.

It would be nice if Sam was bigger and stronger defensively, but it would also be nice if the captain was a decent hockey player, if the veteran star winger could stay healthy and not complain about being turned into a checker everytime someone asks him to play defense. Maybe a defense with some real depth, a bottom six that is effective, or goaltending isn't a duo of unproven and so-old-may-be-senile. Hell, a GM that is proactive instead of just leaving gaping holes in the roster and hoping things "sort themselves out" is a bigger issue than the 2nd line center position right now and for the forseeable future.

Lots of bigger problems to worry about than Sam and his consistent year to year production on the worst team in NHL hockey.

TheBusDriver 12-17-2012 09:31 AM

What if Gagner and Yakupov find great chemistry with each other? Could be a match made in heaven.

nabob 12-17-2012 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Broilers (Post 56614673)
He has produced very good numbers and still just 23. We will see after two years where he is at. I think we can contend and keep Gagner as 2nd line center with Hartikainen and Yakobov.

I would keep Gagner anyway he will be elite 3rd line center when Horcoff is released.

He doesnt have the tools in his toolbox to be an elite 3rd line center. Not even a good one.

nabob 12-17-2012 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SK13 (Post 56608805)
Not that I disagree, but Hall?

What on earth do those two have in common?

True they dont have much in common. I just see Hall as being slightly fragile for now. When the NHL fires back up in 2015 he will be a beast of a power forward.

Hynh 12-17-2012 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nabob (Post 56617533)
He doesnt have the tools in his toolbox to be an elite 3rd line center. Not even a good one.

Depends on what you want out of your 3C. If you want to run 3 scoring lines with the fourth as a checking line, Ganger would be a great option. If you want a more classic top 6/bottom 6 dichotomy then he wouldn't fit.

I think a lot of people here are looking at hunk of bronze ore and trying to carve David, rather than refining the ore and sculpting Gretzky.


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