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-   -   Some middle level NHLers are not good enough for KHL (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1309079)

Siberian 12-17-2012 07:32 PM

Some middle level NHLers are not good enough for KHL
 
Evander Kane and Joffrey Lupul are really good examples that a lot of middle level North American NHLers are not good enough to compete in the KHL. There are many reasons - unwillingness to adapt, lack of toughness for harsher living conditions, inability to increase work output to compensate for the size of ice and pure laziness. Last lockout the same was shown by Lecavalier, Brad Richards who were about subpar in the old Superleague. KHL is a tough league to play.

Ryker 12-17-2012 07:44 PM

I think you're jumping to conclusions too fast, and I don't think those two examples show anything of the sort. I love the KHL, but Lupul did have 4 points in 9 games. Not great, but it's a small sample of games on the worst team in the league. You'd have to see him play for the entire season to make any such judgements. Even with Kane I think there's a chance he would have turned it around. Look at Pavelski, he hasn't started out great, either, but he's really turned it up a notch recently. With that said, I'm not saying either Lupul or Kane would have tore the league up after a longer adjustment period. I don't think that'd be the case, but I think they'd be good for at least the second or third line on their respective teams. They just wouldn't be stars, but you can't say they're not good enough for the KHL.

Siberian 12-17-2012 07:54 PM

I do not think I am jumping to conclusions. Lupul, who was brought to Avtomobilist as a goalscorer received plenty of PT specially on power play. You're thinking it was a fluke where I think it is an actual representation. A lot of players from NHL are not tough enough. I think Lupul, Richards and Lecavalier are softies. KHL is not a recreational league that would let an overpaid player float half a season to get going, you either produce or you out.

SoundAndFury 12-17-2012 08:05 PM

Frankly, I can't see your point. You say they are not good enough in the first sentence and you explain that it has nothing to do with their actual ability in terms of skill and talent level in the second one.

They are good enough. They are unwilling to come out of their comfort zone in terms of effort though. And rightfully so. What purpose would it serve for Lupul to stay and work his ass off for a last place team while being alone in the middle of Russia where no one speaks English and even food is somewhat a problem?

SoundAndFury 12-17-2012 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siberian (Post 56631465)
You're thinking it was a fluke where I think it is an actual representation. A lot of players from NHL are not tough enough. I think Lupul, Richards and Lecavalier are softies. KHL is not a recreational league that would let an overpaid player float half a season to get going, you either produce or you out.

THEY DON'T WANT TO PLAY THEY WANT TO FLOAT!!! And they can play they just don't want to. What's wrong with that? What it has to do with these players being good or not good enough?

Their life, friends, family, salary and reputation as a hockey players stayed in the NA, this is just an adventure lasting few months.

Siberian 12-17-2012 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoundAndFury (Post 56631831)
Frankly, I can't see your point. You say they are not good enough in the first sentence and you explain that it has nothing to do with their actual ability in terms of skill and talent level in the second one.

They are good enough. They are unwilling to come out of their comfort zone in terms of effort though. And rightfully so. What purpose would it serve for Lupul to stay and work his ass off for a last place team while being alone in the middle of the Russia where no one speaks English and even food is somewhat a problem?

Good means being good doesn't it? How are they good (for KHL) if they weren't any good? They may be good for NHL or AHL but that wasn't the subject I was discussing here.

Zine 12-17-2012 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoundAndFury (Post 56631831)
Frankly, I can't see your point. You say they are not good enough in the first sentence and you explain that it has nothing to do with their actual ability in terms of skill and talent level in the second one.

They are good enough. They are unwilling to come out of their comfort zone in terms of effort though. And rightfully so. What purpose would it serve for Lupul to stay and work his ass off for a last place team while being alone in the middle of the Russia where no one speaks English and even food is somewhat a problem?

At the end of the day, it's not about a player's talent level or ability. Being 'good enough' is judged by actual performance, commitment and impact.

It's really no different than countless Europeans with the talent and ability to play in NHL, but who can't and/or chose not to adapt or adjust.

wings5 12-17-2012 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zine (Post 56632485)
At the end of the day, it's not about a player's talent level or ability. Being 'good enough' is judged by actual performance, commitment and impact.

It's really no different than countless Europeans with the talent and ability to play in NHL, but who can't and/or chose not to adapt or adjust.

Agreed, but Siberian phrased the title all wrong its not a case of not being good enough. It's more having initial difficulty adjusting to a new style of hockey and lifestyle.

newfr4u 12-17-2012 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoundAndFury (Post 56631831)
Frankly, I can't see your point. You say they are not good enough in the first sentence and you explain that it has nothing to do with their actual ability in terms of skill and talent level in the second one.

They are good enough. They are unwilling to come out of their comfort zone in terms of effort though. And rightfully so. What purpose would it serve for Lupul to stay and work his ass off for a last place team while being alone in the middle of the Russia where no one speaks English and even food is somewhat a problem?

been to russia much? how is food a problem?

SoundAndFury 12-18-2012 04:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newfr4u (Post 56633033)
been to russia much? how is food a problem?

It's a quite a problem when you can't order it. I, unlike Mr. Lupul, can speak Russian but to quote him:

“The language was obviously really difficult. I don’t think I envisioned there being quite that little English there. There’s basically none,” he said. “So, I mean, regular day-to-day life, going for dinner, becomes quite difficult.”

VladNYC* 12-18-2012 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoundAndFury (Post 56640935)
It's a quite a problem when you can't order it. I, unlike Mr. Lupul, can speak Russian but to quote him:

“The language was obviously really difficult. I don’t think I envisioned there being quite that little English there. There’s basically none,” he said. “So, I mean, regular day-to-day life, going for dinner, becomes quite difficult.”

How dare Russians only speak Russian in Russia!

I know for a fact that there are several Mcdonalds in Chelyabinsk. All Mr.Lupul has to do is point to the meal he wants to feel right at home.

Peter25 12-18-2012 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VladNYC (Post 56641407)
How dare Russians only speak Russian in Russia!

I know for a fact that there are several Mcdonalds in Chelyabinsk. All Mr.Lupul has to do is point to the meal he wants to feel right at home.

If you want to stay in shape eating in McDonalds is not the best option.

SoundAndFury 12-18-2012 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VladNYC (Post 56641407)
How dare Russians only speak Russian in Russia!

I know for a fact that there are several Mcdonalds in Chelyabinsk. All Mr.Lupul has to do is point to the meal he wants to feel right at home.

Oh c'mon, why are all the Russians on this board so overprotective? Nobody's blaming and nobody's whining about Russians speaking only Russian in Russia.

Don't know about you but I would rather eat all the dill in the world than go to McDonalds and it may very well be Lupul feels the same way. Traveling 200 km for a burger would be quite lame anyway :sarcasm:

maroon 6 12-18-2012 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoundAndFury (Post 56632035)
THEY DON'T WANT TO PLAY THEY WANT TO FLOAT!!! And they can play they just don't want to. What's wrong with that? What it has to do with these players being good or not good enough?

Their life, friends, family, salary and reputation as a hockey players stayed in the NA, this is just an adventure lasting few months.

Whats wrong with that? They're getting paid to play their best... And if they aren't playing for salary, nor are they trying their best, then what are they doing in Russia? Why not train/play in NA, rather than "float" in Russia?

SoundAndFury 12-18-2012 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maroon 6 (Post 56641587)
Whats wrong with that? They're getting paid to play their best... And if they aren't playing for salary, nor are they trying their best, then what are they doing in Russia? Why not train/play in NA, rather than "float" in Russia?

Because prospect of traveling to Russia and getting to experience life over there is exciting for a curious person whereas staying in NA where everyday is the same is boring. It's like asking why to go out when you can stay at home.

In Lupul's case he's obviously not very well paid and was not playing for the salary. It looks like he went to Russia just to explore country, culture, hockey and etc., with "let's see how is life over there" attitude.

ViD 12-18-2012 04:08 PM

I think the main point here is that the KHL is not a bush league as some NA posters imagine it to be, but rather a highly competitive and skilled league where you have to give your best to succeed.

Frankly, I'd like to see the top notch NHL players like Crosby or Giroux on the KHL ice, this would be quite intriguing.

I am hearing the KHL will increase the foreign player limit to 6 if the NHL season is cancelled, so the chance is there.

premadonna 12-18-2012 05:00 PM

It's absolutely fair to critizise guys like Kane and Lupul and question their professionalism.

We all know how a guy like Nik Zherdev was treated by North American media and fans, because he was "unwilling to come out of his comfort zone in terms of effort" and never really adapted to North American culture.

Seems to me like many North Americans share a view that foreign individuals must adapt to North American culture and learn the language and local customs quickly but when a North American individual goes to a foreign country, it's the other way around.

Atas2000 12-18-2012 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siberian (Post 56631465)
I do not think I am jumping to conclusions. Lupul, who was brought to Avtomobilist as a goalscorer received plenty of PT specially on power play. You're thinking it was a fluke where I think it is an actual representation. A lot of players from NHL are not tough enough. I think Lupul, Richards and Lecavalier are softies. KHL is not a recreational league that would let an overpaid player float half a season to get going, you either produce or you out.

Oh yes, you are. You are actually just repeating the annoying NA thing to throw a kitchen sink at a foreign player if he doesn't perform right away and invent some ridiculous theories about laziness, lack of metal toughness and so on.

Also you actually can't call a 30-goal scorer NHL middle class.

Facts are that some middle of the pack NA players fit in well in Europe and some of them don't. Just like europeans in the NHL. The reasons are pretty similar too, but that's it.

maroon 6 12-18-2012 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoundAndFury (Post 56642287)
Because prospect of traveling to Russia and getting to experience life over there is exciting for a curious person whereas staying in NA where everyday is the same is boring. It's like asking why to go out when you can stay at home.

In Lupul's case he's obviously not very well paid and was not playing for the salary. It looks like he went to Russia just to explore country, culture, hockey and etc., with "let's see how is life over there" attitude.

Why not just train/live in Russia? You don't have to play hockey to live in Russia.

Again, he's getting paid to play his best, and if he's not doing that than there lots of thing "wrong with that." I wonder what his teammates would think of him half-assing it?

Siberian 12-18-2012 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atas2000 (Post 56654815)
Oh yes, you are. You are actually just repeating the annoying NA thing to throw a kitchen sink at a foreign player if he doesn't perform right away and invent some ridiculous theories about laziness, lack of metal toughness and so on.

Also you actually can't call a 30-goal scorer NHL middle class.

Facts are that some middle of the pack NA players fit in well in Europe and some of them don't. Just like europeans in the NHL. The reasons are pretty similar too, but that's it.

What is he then if not middle class?
His mental toughness was evident in his comments. He was a negative dude who just wasn't prepared to be a true professional and work hard to prove himself. His ridiculous generalizing comment about KHL style without forechecking and a lot of trapping is insane. It's like he was new to hockey. Was Joffrey kidding all of us here? He comes from a conference where they have to play a team 4 times a season that trapped so much that they wouldn't enter an offensive zone for a whole minute and the ref had to whistle the play dead to stop that embarrassment.

Joffrey, how about you shut your piehole and play hard to show that you are not just an overrated bum and soft baby but an actual hockey player. 1 goal in 9 games is what he will have on his hockeydb forever. Good bye Joffrey, Davai do svidania.

Ryker 12-18-2012 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atas2000 (Post 56654815)
Oh yes, you are. You are actually just repeating the annoying NA thing to throw a kitchen sink at a foreign player if he doesn't perform right away and invent some ridiculous theories about laziness, lack of metal toughness and so on.

Exactly! That's my beef with the original post, as well. It's the same mentality used by so many NHL fans that glorify everything North-American and scoff at leagues across Europe as vastly inferior.

newfr4u 12-18-2012 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoundAndFury (Post 56640935)
It's a quite a problem when you can't order it. I, unlike Mr. Lupul, can speak Russian but to quote him:

“The language was obviously really difficult. I don’t think I envisioned there being quite that little English there. There’s basically none,” he said. “So, I mean, regular day-to-day life, going for dinner, becomes quite difficult.”

or, you know, mr lupul could hire a bilingual driver to take him around and help out ordering. pretty much like every russian who doesn't speak english has to do in NA until they get comfortable with the language.

Atas2000 12-19-2012 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siberian (Post 56658057)
What is he then if not middle class?

20-goal scorers are what you'd call middle of the pack in the NHL. A consitent scorer who contributes every year but isn't really the star to carry the team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siberian (Post 56658057)
His mental toughness was evident in his comments. He was a negative dude who just wasn't prepared to be a true professional and work hard to prove himself. His ridiculous generalizing comment about KHL style without forechecking and a lot of trapping is insane. It's like he was new to hockey. Was Joffrey kidding all of us here? He comes from a conference where they have to play a team 4 times a season that trapped so much that they wouldn't enter an offensive zone for a whole minute and the ref had to whistle the play dead to stop that embarrassment.

Joffrey, how about you shut your piehole and play hard to show that you are not just an overrated bum and soft baby but an actual hockey player. 1 goal in 9 games is what he will have on his hockeydb forever. Good bye Joffrey, Davai do svidania.

Well, obviously lockout is a special case. The guys come over with a different attitude. In case of Lupul he obviously never prepared himself for a serious effort to become a notable player in a new league. You can blame him for that or the lockout or even the club management. After all they probably had talks before the signing. Or maybe they were good with it all the way for Lupul to come over for a couple of weeks and if doesn't work out, well, sayonara. If I was the GM I wouldn't jump at that deal, but as a last place team you may be desperate to do something like that.

Once again it doesn't work for every player to go overseas and get comfortable and play good hockey. Should we blame the players who can't handle it? I don't think so. I think we should just realize the true worth of the effort by players who actually succeed in the same situation.

drmagg 12-19-2012 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siberian (Post 56658057)
Good bye Joffrey, Davai do svidania.

Sorry for the flood, but thats just cracked me up... haha, thank you, sir.:laugh:

SoundAndFury 12-19-2012 04:46 AM

For once, I couldn't agree more with Atas2000.


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