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-   -   Dionne vs Esposito (without Orr) (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1309645)

intylerwetrust 12-19-2012 11:44 AM

Dionne vs Esposito (without Orr)
 
I know its hard to compare, but Ive always been one to think Dionne would easily be considered a top 20 player all-time had he played on a decent team, and Espo not so much without Orr.

What dyou guys think?

thom 12-19-2012 11:55 AM

I hear about Dionne let me tell you a story.Edmonton were leading La in a game in 1982 by 4 goals in the third period.Marcel was at the center ice going for goals when the game over.The oiler fans were chanting goal goal suck.Marcel was a me player and not a team player.Overated and a timid goal sucking player

Sens Rule 12-19-2012 12:18 PM

It is hard to predict scenarios. Esposito was not going to develop as he did as the third option in Chicago with the coach and ownership not believing in him. Assuming a trade to any other team for Esposito to be more of the man and go to guy on his team then I think Phil Esposito trumps Dionne's career. Maybe not as many points but still he would be considered as a better player. In 1972 he was THE MAN on Team Canada without Orr and took the team on his back as the leader and best player... on a team full of stars and superstars. No way Dionne could ever have done that. Esposito had A 20 POINT playoff at 36 years old on the Rangers that surpasses any Dionne playoff by a wide margin.... even though Esposito was older and a fraction of the force he was in Boston.

Dionne's scoring would be closer to Esposito's if he did not have Orr. But GMs or coaches and HHOF voters and HF board historians would almost unanimously pick Esposito over Dionne.

seventieslord 12-19-2012 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sens Rule (Post 56672291)
Dionne's scoring would be closer to Esposito's if he did not have Orr. But GMs or coaches and HHOF voters and HF board historians would almost unanimously pick Esposito over Dionne.

Yes, they would now, but I believe the question is, without Orr, would they still?

I think it could go either way.

pdd 12-19-2012 12:45 PM

I have to go Dionne.

Dionne had a better PPG than Orr with a much scoring situation, he was an elite scoring star earlier in his career, and he was an elite scorer later on too.

Dionne outscored Esposito 6 of 10 overlapping seasons despite starting his career at the beginning of Esposito's prime.

Esposito's prime scoring level (with Orr) was comparable to Dionne's. But Dionne didn't have Orr. Dionne was easilt the most talented offensive player of the 70s - including Lafleur. If he had a prime Orr, a prime Robinson, a prime Lapointe, a prime Coffey, a prime Potvin, a prime Park, etc. he probably is posting regular 150+ seasons. The same can be said of guys like Yzerman and Stastny in the 80s.

Czech Your Math 12-19-2012 01:22 PM

Dionne did not score at Espo's level (with Orr). You would have to decrease Espo's production ~20% for their peak/prime production to be about equal. That may be a fair estimate of the boost Espo received from playing with Orr & Boston. I think it's close, but Espo's playoff and international performances trump Dionne's and give him the edge IMO.

seventieslord 12-19-2012 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Czech Your Math (Post 56673979)
Dionne did not score at Espo's level (with Orr). You would have to decrease Espo's production ~20% for their peak/prime production to be about equal. That may be a fair estimate of the boost Espo received from playing with Orr & Boston. I think it's close, but Espo's playoff and international performances trump Dionne's and give him the edge IMO.

just going by the sum of their best 6 adjusted point seasons, it seems Dionne’s about 14% below Espo in peak production.

Fred Taylor 12-19-2012 01:53 PM

Dionne to me, is underrated, one of the most skilled offensive players to play the game and had their situations been turned around maybe we'd be considering Dionne the better player. That's the thing though, it's a what if situation and it's too hard to tell how much to dock off Esposito's points in his prime years. I watched the two play for all of Esposito's prime and all of Dionne's career and although it's very close I would still have to go with Phil here.

pdd 12-19-2012 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Czech Your Math (Post 56673979)
Dionne did not score at Espo's level (with Orr). You would have to decrease Espo's production ~20% for their peak/prime production to be about equal. That may be a fair estimate of the boost Espo received from playing with Orr & Boston. I think it's close, but Espo's playoff and international performances trump Dionne's and give him the edge IMO.

In Esposito's 7-year prime (68-68 to 74-75) he averaged 64 goals and 139 points per-82. In Dionne's 7-year prime (78-79 to 84-85), he averaged 56 goals and 132 points per-82.

That's close enough statistically to be considered equal. If you take away Orr, it's not even close. Dionne comes out well ahead.

Hawkey Town 18 12-19-2012 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eva unit zero (Post 56674867)
In Esposito's 7-year prime (68-68 to 74-75) he averaged 64 goals and 139 points per-82. In Dionne's 7-year prime (78-79 to 84-85), he averaged 56 goals and 132 points per-82.

That's close enough statistically to be considered equal. If you take away Orr, it's not even close. Dionne comes out well ahead.

Average NHL goals per game during...
Espo's prime: 6.27
Dionne's prime: 7.59

How much does the increase in league scoring level for Dionne cancel out the Orr effect for Esposito?


EDIT: The difference over an 80 game schedule is 105.6 goals per game, figure half goes to each team, so about 53 more goals. How many more goals was Orr responsible for per season than an above average #1 Dman?

Czech Your Math 12-19-2012 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord (Post 56674657)
just going by the sum of their best 6 adjusted point seasons, it seems Dionne’s about 14% below Espo in peak production.

I have ~18% less for best 6 adjusted, compared to HR's ~16%.

Were there smaller rosters in the late 60s to mid-70s?

Hardyvan123 12-19-2012 10:17 PM

Dionne for me, despite his lack of playoff performance, his longevity as an excellent to elite scorer is simply something that Phil can't match.

Dionne's support and team situation are also a whole lot worse than Phil's IMO.

Killion 12-19-2012 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 (Post 56686095)
Dionne's support and team situation are also a whole lot worse than Phil's IMO.

Esposito on this one IMO. "Support & team situation" can in fact be crafted & created by a true leader to a great extent, and its not only in that department, the intangibles that Phil excels, as CYM points out above, statistically, Espo was superior to The Little Beaver, though flashed, crashed & burned earlier, didnt have the same longevity obviously.

VMBM 12-20-2012 03:46 AM

Esposito, easily.

Dionne is one of those players who are just 'great stats' for me. Admittedly, I haven't seen Dionne a lot but have seen him enough to have at least some kind of impression - and it's not a very positive one.

I just can't imagine Dionne doing what Esposito did in 1972; yes, "it's only 8 games", but IMO Dionne didn't have that sort of greatness in him.

Sens Rule 12-20-2012 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 (Post 56686095)
Dionne for me, despite his lack of playoff performance, his longevity as an excellent to elite scorer is simply something that Phil can't match.

Dionne's support and team situation are also a whole lot worse than Phil's IMO.

Well Esposito has a longevity few can match. He was in several top 10 offensive categories his first 3 full seasons in Chicago... and in a few after his Boston Prime in New York. He never missed any games. He scored 36 goals per game average in his first 5 seasons in New York. He only declined from being an excellent scorer his final season when he was 38.

I really don't see longevity as an excellent scorer as much of a difference with Dionne. Because Dionne had a 20 year old draft year he really doesn't have too much of a jump earlier in his NHL career over Esposito who was a later starter then most superstars.. but really only 2 years later then Dionne.

Dionne was great but he really is not much of a match for Esposito even without the extra benefit of Orr. At least in my opinion.

Actp 12-20-2012 06:51 AM

Not a huge fan of the lack of defense from either player, but Espo all the way for me. Others have already pointed out, Esposito's Chicago original six production and his superior international resume. While I don't usually give much credence to international play for a North American player, in this case I think it does say something.

pdd 12-20-2012 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 (Post 56676251)
Average NHL goals per game during...
Espo's prime: 6.27
Dionne's prime: 7.59

How much does the increase in league scoring level for Dionne cancel out the Orr effect for Esposito?


EDIT: The difference over an 80 game schedule is 105.6 goals per game, figure half goes to each team, so about 53 more goals. How many more goals was Orr responsible for per season than an above average #1 Dman?

What has more effect? The average league scoring increase, or the greater parity in the early 80s as opposed to the extremely lopsided early/mid 70s?

Scoring numbers from the 70s must be taken with a grain of salt because not only are they from a high scoring era, they're from an era where high-end talent was concentrated on a few teams. Boston was one of those teams.

Ogopogo* 12-20-2012 08:21 AM

I think, trying to discredit players because of the teammates they played with is an idiotic practice - especially the career of an HOFer. Saying that Esposito or Kurri or any other great player wasn't really that great - simply because they had great teammates - is plain foolishness.

Esposito accomplished great things in the NHL and proved how great he was without Orr in the 1972 Summit. Jari Kurri was a great NHLer and showed it without Gretzky by putting up more points the year after Gretzky was sold to LA. Dionne was great with or without great teammates.

Teammates and linemates do not build a great career. Players are great or not on their own - no matter the team, line or players around them. Trying to discredit HOFers in this way is pure foolishness.

JuniorNelson 12-20-2012 08:53 AM

Esposito was a force. He was a huge power forward who would fight. Imagine Brett Hull's skillset in Lucic and you get the idea. He could inhabit the slot under any assault and get off top corner shots. Of course everyone on his unit was a set-up man, but they knew it and accepted the many assists.

Esposito didn't benefit from Orr as much as Orr benefitted from Esposito. Many of Orr's rushes ended behind the net without a shot, unless Esposito was on the ice. Then, Orr had a deadly option to pass off to. Esposito was always ready and had a quick release, perfect for Orr.

jack mullet 12-20-2012 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ogopogo (Post 56690641)
I think, trying to discredit players because of the teammates they played with is an idiotic practice - especially the career of an HOFer. Saying that Esposito or Kurri or any other great player wasn't really that great - simply because they had great teammates - is plain foolishness.

Esposito accomplished great things in the NHL and proved how great he was without Orr in the 1972 Summit. Jari Kurri was a great NHLer and showed it without Gretzky by putting up more points the year after Gretzky was sold to LA. Dionne was great with or without great teammates.

Teammates and linemates do not build a great career. Players are great or not on their own - no matter the team, line or players around them. Trying to discredit HOFers in this way is pure foolishness.

:handclap:

i would pick Dionne over Espo. in fact I would put Dionne over Lafleur as well. That little french guy never got the credit he deserved, mainly because he spent most of his career in LA. it cannot be denied that the team you play on tends to either amplify your career in the minds of hockey fans, or discredit personal accomplishments.

Hardyvan123 12-20-2012 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killion (Post 56687297)
Esposito on this one IMO. "Support & team situation" can in fact be crafted & created by a true leader to a great extent, and its not only in that department, the intangibles that Phil excels, as CYM points out above, statistically, Espo was superior to The Little Beaver, though flashed, crashed & burned earlier, didnt have the same longevity obviously.

To me there are too many questions about the Orr affect and I'm not sure if Phil even belongs in the top 20 centers of all time anymore. something I will think about for the top 50 centers project to be sure.

Czech Your Math 12-20-2012 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ogopogo (Post 56690641)
I think, trying to discredit players because of the teammates they played with is an idiotic practice - especially the career of an HOFer. Saying that Esposito or Kurri or any other great player wasn't really that great - simply because they had great teammates - is plain foolishness.

Esposito accomplished great things in the NHL and proved how great he was without Orr in the 1972 Summit. Jari Kurri was a great NHLer and showed it without Gretzky by putting up more points the year after Gretzky was sold to LA. Dionne was great with or without great teammates.

Teammates and linemates do not build a great career. Players are great or not on their own - no matter the team, line or players around them. Trying to discredit HOFers in this way is pure foolishness.

It's not like the only knock on Espo is that he got to play with Orr. Besides being on a powerhouse team in a league with a bunch of inferior expansion teams, his teams were better at ES without him on the ice than with him for the last half of his career (after '72).

Hardyvan123 12-20-2012 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sens Rule (Post 56689439)
Well Esposito has a longevity few can match. He was in several top 10 offensive categories his first 3 full seasons in Chicago... and in a few after his Boston Prime in New York. He never missed any games. He scored 36 goals per game average in his first 5 seasons in New York. He only declined from being an excellent scorer his final season when he was 38.

I really don't see longevity as an excellent scorer as much of a difference with Dionne. Because Dionne had a 20 year old draft year he really doesn't have too much of a jump earlier in his NHL career over Esposito who was a later starter then most superstars.. but really only 2 years later then Dionne.

Dionne was great but he really is not much of a match for Esposito even without the extra benefit of Orr. At least in my opinion.

I think if we break it down season by season and take into account that there was at least some Orr affect, that at the very least Dionne trumps Phil by quite a bit in the scoring department taking both players (seasons 1-4 and skipping 5-12 Orr years, and then taking their 13-19 seasons).

If one wanted to skip Phils 1st half season Dionne would still come out on top and let's face it no player in modern history scored as much as Dionne did with so little at the PP QB Dman position.

It's not like either player has any advantage in the defensive part of the game department either.

Hardyvan123 12-20-2012 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ogopogo (Post 56690641)
I think, trying to discredit players because of the teammates they played with is an idiotic practice - especially the career of an HOFer. Saying that Esposito or Kurri or any other great player wasn't really that great - simply because they had great teammates - is plain foolishness.


It's called perspective and any players teams and environment does have an influence on how that player does, to think it doesn't it pure foolishness to quote you.

Also to make a fair comparison we need to look at as many factors as possible. Just because Howe only scored over 100 points once doesn't make him a great scorer, we ahve to account for era don't we?

Quote:

Esposito accomplished great things in the NHL and proved how great he was without Orr in the 1972 Summit. Jari Kurri was a great NHLer and showed it without Gretzky by putting up more points the year after Gretzky was sold to LA. Dionne was great with or without great teammates.
Esposito played what 10 games and with how many HHOF guys as well? I think it was 14. Kurri also wasn't playing with bums either on that Oilers team and his absolute peak was indeed influenced by Wayne IMO.


Quote:

Teammates and linemates do not build a great career. Players are great or not on their own - no matter the team, line or players around them. Trying to discredit HOFers in this way is pure foolishness.
They don't build a great career on their own, but even that's debatable with Reggie Leach and Charlie simmer for instance.

But teammates and linemates certainly have an influence and can enhance even a great players stats and standing in the hockey world.

tombombadil 12-20-2012 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Czech Your Math (Post 56680539)
I have ~18% less for best 6 adjusted, compared to HR's ~16%.

Were there smaller rosters in the late 60s to mid-70s?

I looked this up months ago. I can't be specific, but I think there were 3 line teams until the late 70's.


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