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-   -   Why do pitchers get credited with wins? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1309863)

Epictetus 12-19-2012 06:53 PM

Why do pitchers get credited with wins?
 
I was just thinking about this, and I don't think I can conceive of a logical reason. I mean, would it make a difference if a pitcher was not credited with a win and instead the team is recognized as getting the win (as they already are)?

I mean I suppose it is a stat, but I think it's almost universally agreed upon that wins are not a predictive measure of a pitcher's individual performance, so the stat fails on that basis. Perhaps the same can be said of goaltenders in hockey.

I don't see QB's get assigned wins in football, or goaltenders in soccer and perhaps this can just as easily be done if you want to add a stat.

Is there a historical reason?

IU Hawks fan 12-19-2012 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epictetus (Post 56681949)
Is there a historical reason?

Yes.

Just something they've always done.

Vamos Rafa 12-19-2012 08:32 PM

"Goaltenders" in soccer also don't get the GAA stat...

LEAFANFORLIFE23 12-19-2012 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grillinnap (Post 56684079)
"Goaltenders" in soccer also don't get the GAA stat...

that is because they don't need it as that would mean someone actually scored

iamjs 12-19-2012 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epictetus (Post 56681949)
I don't see QB's get assigned wins in football

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/2332/orlymr2.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_wi...arterback_(NFL)

theaub 12-19-2012 10:28 PM

Winz Young disagrees with that statement

JDinkalage Morgoone 12-20-2012 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epictetus (Post 56681949)
I was just thinking about this, and I don't think I can conceive of a logical reason. I mean, would it make a difference if a pitcher was not credited with a win and instead the team is recognized as getting the win (as they already are)?

I mean I suppose it is a stat, but I think it's almost universally agreed upon that wins are not a predictive measure of a pitcher's individual performance, so the stat fails on that basis. Perhaps the same can be said of goaltenders in hockey.

I don't see QB's get assigned wins in football, or goaltenders in soccer and perhaps this can just as easily be done if you want to add a stat.

Is there a historical reason?

Tell that to award voters who seem to only give Cy Youngs to the guy with the most wins 95% of the time.

robert terwilliger 12-20-2012 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone (Post 56690611)
Tell that to award voters who seem to only give Cy Youngs to the guy with the most wins 95% of the time.

so most of the people who vote on awards are dinosaurs?

http://memextreme.com/wp-content/gal...u-dont-say.png

Machinehead 12-20-2012 04:36 PM

Wins are actually a halfway decent measuring tool for guys who play on the same team. Flawed, yes, but not totally useless as they are when comparing guys not on the same team.

BPR* 12-20-2012 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Machinehead (Post 56703693)
Wins are actually a halfway decent measuring tool for guys who play on the same team. Flawed, yes, but not totally useless as they are when comparing guys not on the same team.

If you had a larger sample, yeah. Problem is ~30 starts a piece means there can be a ton of variance in offensive and bullpen support.

Machinehead 12-20-2012 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slim Charles (Post 56704465)
If you had a larger sample, yeah. Problem is ~30 starts a piece means there can be a ton of variance in offensive and bullpen support.

Yeah all in all it's still not very good.

It's just something you can point to when guys have been on the same team for a few years, but there's better and more consistent stats regardless.

robert terwilliger 12-20-2012 05:30 PM

it's not even worth that.

some pitchers get more run support than others. no real reason behind it, it just happens.

does that mean that pitcher a is better than pitcher b? if pitcher a has 15 wins and pitcher b has 11? not really.

darko 12-20-2012 07:31 PM

Agree on run support. Lance Lynn had the best run support in baseball last season. Kyle Lohse? 46th best.

Big Poppa Puck 12-21-2012 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robert terwilliger (Post 56704839)
it's not even worth that.

some pitchers get more run support than others. no real reason behind it, it just happens.

does that mean that pitcher a is better than pitcher b? if pitcher a has 15 wins and pitcher b has 11? not really.

I had a (brief) argument with someone (excuse the exaggerations but it was to make a point) who said he'd take a 20 win Pitcher with like a 8.00 ERA over a 20 loss Pitcher with an ERA <2.00.

I just :laugh: and :facepalm:

It was more :facepalm: worthy than when someone else told me steroids turn a ground out to 2B into a double in the gap. :shakehead


Moral of the story? I needed to find smarter people to talk baseball with. :laugh:

thestonedkoala 12-21-2012 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robert terwilliger (Post 56704839)
it's not even worth that.

some pitchers get more run support than others. no real reason behind it, it just happens.

does that mean that pitcher a is better than pitcher b? if pitcher a has 15 wins and pitcher b has 11? not really.

Just like goaltenders are credited for a win.

99GoHabsGo99 12-21-2012 06:59 AM

Because they do

JDinkalage Morgoone 12-21-2012 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robert terwilliger (Post 56704839)
it's not even worth that.

some pitchers get more run support than others. no real reason behind it, it just happens.

does that mean that pitcher a is better than pitcher b? if pitcher a has 15 wins and pitcher b has 11? not really.

Cliff Lee last year. The amount of Phillies "fans" that thought he was terrible because of his W-L didn't seem to notice his stats were somewhat close to Cole Hamels, who they all loved last year.

Machinehead 12-21-2012 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDinklage Morgoone (Post 56715537)
Cliff Lee last year. The amount of Phillies "fans" that thought he was terrible because of his W-L didn't seem to notice his stats were somewhat close to Cole Hamels, who they all loved last year.

Oh that reminds me...

http://l.wigflip.com/fttfej6k/roflbot.jpg

Favorite image ever :laugh:

But I agree with your post.

JDinkalage Morgoone 01-08-2013 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Machinehead (Post 56731145)
Oh that reminds me...

http://l.wigflip.com/fttfej6k/roflbot.jpg

Favorite image ever :laugh:

But I agree with your post.

I remember when I saw that; I laughed, then I cried because the Phillies were bad.


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