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-   -   When the NHL cancels the season, Fehr will Fight to Repeal the Cap (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1310485)

RedWingsNow* 12-21-2012 01:36 PM

When the NHL cancels the season, Fehr will Fight to Repeal the Cap
 
The NHLPA executive hired Fehr to get rid of the cap.
I am almost sure of it now.

It seems hard to believe, given that the union has agreed to what amounts to a several year wage freeze and restrictions on contract.

It doesn't make much sense to me that the PA would move so close to the NHL's offer and then draw the line on certain things (most notably--5 year vs 8 year contracts and who pays for the damage caused by the lockout ... an issue that gets bigger each day).

It doesn't make sense unless you consider that Fehr is counting on the NHL owners' greed, pride and arrogance -- that will lead the NHL into locking out the PA.

Fehr couldn't put the cap on the table from the beginning because the hockey media, pro-owner as it is, would revolt. In fact, moderate players would not have the stomach for it.

So Fehr has been stringing this out, offering bits here and there... knowing the greedy owners would never accept anything he proposed.

He's offered just enough to make the moderates think the PA has given (and the PA has given-- there's no denying who has made the real concessions and who hasn't).

The NHL is not going to get the deal the NFL or NBA got with Fehr at the table. That's obvious. Unless they find a bludgeon.

When the NHL cancels the season, Fehr and the executive will have exactly what they want... the fight to repeal the salary cap.

This lockout may last two years.

struckmatch 12-21-2012 01:54 PM

First of all, players in the NHL have a limited shelf life.

The average career length for a player is 5.62 years. Why would the majority of them give up 2 years of salary to get rid of a system (the salary cap) that saw them earn more money than ever before?

This doesn't make sense. The deadline was the ONLY thing that was going to make this deal happen, now that it's here, they'll get it done before they cancel the season.

atomic 12-21-2012 01:57 PM

MOD

It won't last 2 years. the players can't go two years without their big salaries. sure a few guys are getting paid well in Europe but most are getting a small percentage of their salaries. And what are the agents getting? It will start up by October of next year. Fehr will be fired if he doesn't get anything done by then.

robla 12-21-2012 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by struckmatch (Post 56720865)
First of all, players in the NHL have a limited shelf life.

The average career length for a player is 5.62 years. Why would the majority of them give up 2 years of salary to get rid of a system (the salary cap) that saw them earn more money than ever before?

This doesn't make sense. The deadline was the ONLY thing that was going to make this deal happen, now that it's here, they'll get it done before they cancel the season.

you are making one big mistake.. you are using common sense!
the last months showed that the players are not using common sense... you can kiss this season good-bye

KINGS17 12-21-2012 02:00 PM

So, what I got from that is that Fehr has been bargaining in bad faith the entire time. I agree.

pld459666 12-21-2012 02:00 PM

While I am a NHLPA supporter, I do not think it serves anyone any good to try to un-do the salary cap.

It would be a scorched earth scenario should that be his agenda.

What I think he wants to do is get the best deal possible out of the NHL and to date I don't believe we have seen that from the NHL.

We have seen some very good offers, but the NHL can still give more and at the end of the day, the best deal the NHL can offer is still taking back from the NHLPA what they had in the previous agreement.

There's not one aspect in any of the Owners offer that doesn't see the players giving and the owners taking on every issue. To one degree or the other, every NHL offer has the NHL receiving concessions from the players from the previous agreement.

The Players aren't even asking to do better than they were in the previous deal, they are asking for some status quo (or close to status quo) on portions of the previous agreement.

The argument that the previous agreement plays no bearing on this swings both ways. It's an argument I don't buy.

Both parties have a basis to start from. That happens to be the previous agreement.

To say that that agreement is over and out the window throws the Salary Cap into play as a negotiable item. If that's not negotiable, then the previous agreement DOES play a factor in THESE negotiations.

Owners have taken advantage of players since sports began. Fehr tries to make sure that under his watch the degree upon which that happens is softened quite a bit.

NJDevs26 12-21-2012 02:02 PM

If the players want to kill two years or more to get rid of the cap, c'est la vie...eventually teams will contract and there won't be as many jobs to fight over, then they can enjoy a 24-team NHL where only five or six teams can spend and everyone else is SOL.

Not to mention a completely disillusioned fanbase that will disappear with a lockout that long.

atomic 12-21-2012 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pld459666 (Post 56720987)
While I am a NHLPA supporter, I do not think it serves anyone any good to try to un-do the salary cap.

It would be a scorched earth scenario should that be his agenda.

What I think he wants to do is get the best deal possible out of the NHL and to date I don't believe we have seen that from the NHL.

We have seen some very good offers, but the NHL can still give more and at the end of the day, the best deal the NHL can offer is still taking back from the NHLPA what they had in the previous agreement.

There's not one aspect in any of the Owners offer that doesn't see the players giving and the owners taking on every issue. To one degree or the other, every NHL offer has the NHL receiving concessions from the players from the previous agreement.

The Players aren't even asking to do better than they were in the previous deal, they are asking for some status quo (or close to status quo) on portions of the previous agreement.

The argument that the previous agreement plays no bearing on this swings both ways. It's an argument I don't buy.

Both parties have a basis to start from. That happens to be the previous agreement.

To say that that agreement is over and out the window throws the Salary Cap into play as a negotiable item. If that's not negotiable, then the previous agreement DOES play a factor in THESE negotiations.

Owners have taken advantage of players since sports began. Fehr tries to make sure that under his watch the degree upon which that happens is softened quite a bit.

compare the salaries in the NHL to every other hockey league in the world and then get back to me and tell me how the owners have been taking advantage of hockey players. Let's face it you could pay these guys 60k a year to play hockey and they would take it. The AHL has no problem filling their league with players willing to play for a small fraction of an NHL salar.

RedWingsNow* 12-21-2012 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by atomic (Post 56720905)

It won't last 2 years. the players can't go two years without their big salaries. sure a few guys are getting paid well in Europe but most are getting a small percentage of their salaries. And what are the agents getting? It will start up by October of next year. Fehr will be fired if he doesn't get anything done by then.

SNIPPED the insulting stuff.
If the season is canceled the PA will have no choice but to fight for real victory -- The salary cap

I don't believe the executive hired Don Fehr to negotiate the difference between 5 year and 8 year contracts.,

stuffradio 12-21-2012 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by struckmatch (Post 56720865)
First of all, players in the NHL have a limited shelf life.

The average career length for a player is 5.62 years. Why would the majority of them give up 2 years of salary to get rid of a system (the salary cap) that saw them earn more money than ever before?

This doesn't make sense. The deadline was the ONLY thing that was going to make this deal happen, now that it's here, they'll get it done before they cancel the season.

Sorry, as much as I want to watch my Canucks, we're not getting a season this year.

Frenchy 12-21-2012 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Bob (Post 56720547)
The NHLPA executive hired Fehr to get rid of the cap.
I am almost sure of it now.

It seems hard to believe, given that the union has agreed to what amounts to a several year wage freeze and restrictions on contract.

It doesn't make much sense to me that the PA would move so close to the NHL's offer and then draw the line on certain things (most notably--5 year vs 8 year contracts and who pays for the damage caused by the lockout ... an issue that gets bigger each day).

It doesn't make sense unless you consider that Fehr is counting on the NHL owners' greed, pride and arrogance -- that will lead the NHL into locking out the PA.

Fehr couldn't put the cap on the table from the beginning because the hockey media, pro-owner as it is, would revolt. In fact, moderate players would not have the stomach for it.

So Fehr has been stringing this out, offering bits here and there... knowing the greedy owners would never accept anything he proposed.

He's offered just enough to make the moderates think the PA has given (and the PA has given-- there's no denying who has made the real concessions and who hasn't).

The NHL is not going to get the deal the NFL or NBA got with Fehr at the table. That's obvious. Unless they find a bludgeon.

When the NHL cancels the season, Fehr and the executive will have exactly what they want... the fight to repeal the salary cap.

This lockout may last two years.

I heard something along those lines , a few weeks ago that Fehr has a secret agenda and it's to get rid of the cap. But it was just a couple of journalists talking about it on TV , nothing more .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stix and Stones (Post 56720877)
Where do you live? I have yet to see a pro owner article. Is HFboards your only source?

You're right , The Media tend to be pro players

RedWingsNow* 12-21-2012 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pld459666 (Post 56720987)
While I am a NHLPA supporter, I do not think it serves anyone any good to try to un-do the salary cap.

It would be a scorched earth scenario should that be his agenda.

What do consider canceling a season? That's the ultimate scorched earth policy.

Quote:

What I think he wants to do is get the best deal possible out of the NHL and to date I don't believe we have seen that from the NHL.

We have seen some very good offers, but the NHL can still give more and at the end of the day, the best deal the NHL can offer is still taking back from the NHLPA what they had in the previous agreement.

There's not one aspect in any of the Owners offer that doesn't see the players giving and the owners taking on every issue. To one degree or the other, every NHL offer has the NHL receiving concessions from the players from the previous agreement.

The Players aren't even asking to do better than they were in the previous deal, they are asking for some status quo (or close to status quo) on portions of the previous agreement.

The argument that the previous agreement plays no bearing on this swings both ways. It's an argument I don't buy.

Both parties have a basis to start from. That happens to be the previous agreement.

To say that that agreement is over and out the window throws the Salary Cap into play as a negotiable item. If that's not negotiable, then the previous agreement DOES play a factor in THESE negotiations.

Owners have taken advantage of players since sports began. Fehr tries to make sure that under his watch the degree upon which that happens is softened quite a bit.
At this point, what does Fehr get if the owners accepted the PA's offer?

Squat. I don't believe Fehr thinks an offer full of concessions after 3 months of missed paychecks is a good benefit... Do you?

RedWingsNow* 12-21-2012 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KINGS17 (Post 56720985)
So, what I got from that is that Fehr has been bargaining in bad faith the entire time. I agree.

He's not bargaining in bad faith.
He's playing the angle for the best possible deal.

Right now, the owners could accept this Fehr deal and do a victory lap. But he knows they will not.

RedWingsNow* 12-21-2012 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frenchy (Post 56721145)
I heard something along those lines , a few weeks ago that Fehr has a secret agenda and it's to get rid of the cap. But it was just a couple of journalists talking about it on TV , nothing more .



You're right , The Media tend to be pro players

Bob McKenzie, Pierre Lebrun... Damen Cox, Darren Dreger..

All Pro-owner.

All accept the owners' premise on all of these arguments.

robla 12-21-2012 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Bob (Post 56721127)
SNIPPED the insulting stuff.
If the season is canceled the PA will have no choice but to fight for real victory -- The salary cap

I don't believe the executive hired Don Fehr to negotiate the difference between 5 year and 8 year contracts.,

what is happening between the NHL and the players isn' t a negotiation anymore.. more like a war.. and in a war there are no real victories...
the NHL is the branch every player is sitting on.. so is it smart to weaken this branch to a point were it will break?
bring on the replacement players.. most people don't give a damn for the players as long as the product is (somewhat) entertaining and they recognize the brand (here franchises)
you really think the players can win anything here? they already lost by not taking the October offer..

RedWingsNow* 12-21-2012 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robla (Post 56721261)
what is happening between the NHL and the players isn' t a negotiation anymore.. more like a war.. and in a war there are no real victories...
the NHL is the branch every player is sitting on.. so is it smart to weaken this branch to a point were it will break?
bring on the replacement players.. most people don't give a damn for the players as long as the product is (somewhat) entertaining and they recognize the brand (here franchises)
you really think the players can win anything here? they already lost by not taking the October offer..

Yes. The players can win by removing the salary cap and linkage.

Once you accept the salary cap and linkage-- you become part of the NBA/NFL pattern bargainning - as we've seen.

robla 12-21-2012 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Bob (Post 56721301)
Yes. The players can win by removing the salary cap and linkage.

no > this generation of players can NOT win..
this is over...not possible..

Stats01 12-21-2012 02:21 PM

If the players fight to have the cap taken away you might as well just shut down the league. No way the NHL survives after a 2 year lock-out. Fans don't care now, how do you think they'll feel another year from now. Who the heck would go and watch? Who would pony up as a sponsor? If the NHL is struggling in some American markets now, it would be literally non-existent 12 months from now. It would just destroy the league as a whole.

Stickmata 12-21-2012 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Bob (Post 56721215)
He's not bargaining in bad faith.
He's playing the angle for the best possible deal.

Right now, the owners could accept this Fehr deal and do a victory lap. But he knows they will not.

Please, what the NHLPA has offered is nothing close to a victory lap by the owners. If you think it is, you obviously have no background in Finance or Economics.

The owners know that accepting the NHLPA's current offer will not solve their economic problems and will just guarantee this whole mess will be played out again in a few short years.

Honestly, for probably 30-40 percent of the teams in the league, shutting down is probably a better alternative to accepting the NHLPA's offer.

punkr0x 12-21-2012 02:26 PM

If this was the case I don't think the union would be going down the path of disclaimer of interest/decertification. If Fehr takes the drastic direction of trying to get rid of the salary cap, a lot of players are going to go against him. I don't think the players' side is devious enough to pretend they're willing to decertify just so they can play, then pull the rug out and demand the salary cap be lifted. It would require that over 50% of the NHLPA was in on the scheme.

Not to mention that the owners would never go for it. They'll let the league fold and start over before getting rid of the salary cap.

RedWingsNow* 12-21-2012 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robla (Post 56721335)
no > this generation of players can NOT win..
this is over...not possible..

There are a lot of guys in this generation who will benefit if the cap goes away.

The union is the union. it's not only about the 700 guys right now. It's about the 700 guys in 2 years, in 6 years and in 10 years.

atomic 12-21-2012 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stickmata (Post 56721389)
Please, what the NHLPA has offered is nothing close to a victory lap by the owners. If you think it is, you obviously have no background in Finance or Economics.

The owners know that accepting the NHLPA's current offer will not solve their economic problems and will just guarantee this whole mess will be played out again in a few short years.

Honestly, for probably 30-40 percent of the teams in the league, shutting down is probably a better alternative to accepting the NHLPA's offer.

yeah the biggest thing i see in the players offer is that the cap can't go below a minimum figure. This could cause the whole league to fail. No way anyone with any sense would agree to it. the players should just come back to the owners previous offer with a request for 52 percent share and then settle at 51 percent. and get a 10 year deal so we don't have to go through this again for a decade.

Melrose Munch 12-21-2012 02:35 PM

Listen, if this is two years the NHL is done. There is no way a 2 year lockout will produce anything other than a history lesson. The MLS thanks the NHL for this historic opportunity and because of a lack of nationalist jingonism, it will capture all the NHL revenue and then some.

CrazyJ 12-21-2012 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robla (Post 56721335)
no > this generation of players can NOT win..
this is over...not possible..

That depends on the definition of winning. If your definition is money based then you are correct. But what is the players definition of winning?

Boltsfan2029 12-21-2012 02:39 PM

He can certainly go after the cap, just as long as he's willing to cost the players their guaranteed contracts, because that will be the immediate reply from the league.


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