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-   -   Joe Morrow vs Derrick Pouliot (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1310663)

mpp9 12-21-2012 07:41 PM

Joe Morrow vs Derrick Pouliot
 
Who holds greater value to the organization moving forward? It's obvious there's going to be some serious turnover with our D lineup in the coming years.

jmelm 12-21-2012 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mpp9 (Post 56727825)
Who holds greater value to the organization moving forward? It's obvious there's going to be some serious turnover with our D lineup in the coming years.


If Joe Morrow were to put everything together and reach his ultimate potential, then I think he has the higher upside and most valuable asset -- to this organization or another. I say this because he is even faster, even stronger, and even tougher than DP. But he is less sure to reach his "ultimate" level of potential. In truth, we don't yet know if Morrow will be a really nice, complementary guy in our top-6 (like Niskanen is on our team), or if he will end up being a legit, top-pairing, all-star Dman.


Derrick Pouliot, on the other hand and IMO, is more likely to reach his highest potential due to superior hockey sense, poise, and pedigree than Morrow. In addition, while Morrow has very good offensive upside, DP's overall offensive upside is even higher, and more unique within our prospect pool & organiztion. So I think he is more likely to be a valuable asset to our hockey club.


I personally voted DP as #1 in our prospect poll for these reasons; but at the same time acknowledge that Morrow could end up being the best of them all if he reaches his full potential.

JTG 12-21-2012 08:29 PM

Depends how Pouliot develops in the next 2 or 3 years. I personally like Morrow better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmelm (Post 56728677)
If Joe Morrow were to put everything together and reach his ultimate potential, then I think he has the higher upside and most valuable asset -- to this organization or another. I say this because he is even faster, even stronger, and even tougher than DP. But he is less sure to reach his "ultimate" level of potential. In truth, we don't yet know if Morrow will be a really nice, complementary guy in our top-6 (like Niskanen is on our team), or if he will end up being a legit, top-pairing, all-star Dman.


Derrick Pouliot, on the other hand and IMO, is more likely to reach his highest potential due to superior hockey sense, poise, and pedigree than Morrow. In addition, while Morrow has very good offensive upside, DP's overall offensive upside is even higher, and more unique within our prospect pool & organiztion. So I think he is more likely to be a valuable asset to our hockey club.


I personally voted DP as #1 in our prospect poll for these reasons; but at the same time acknowledge that Morrow could end up being the best of them all if he reaches his full potential.

I think this is pretty well said, and spot on.

Dangles78 12-21-2012 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmelm (Post 56728677)
If Joe Morrow were to put everything together and reach his ultimate potential, then I think he has the higher upside and most valuable asset -- to this organization or another. I say this because he is even faster, even stronger, and even tougher than DP. But he is less sure to reach his "ultimate" level of potential. In truth, we don't yet know if Morrow will be a really nice, complementary guy in our top-6 (like Niskanen is on our team), or if he will end up being a legit, top-pairing, all-star Dman.


Derrick Pouliot, on the other hand and IMO, is more likely to reach his highest potential due to superior hockey sense, poise, and pedigree than Morrow. In addition, while Morrow has very good offensive upside, DP's overall offensive upside is even higher, and more unique within our prospect pool & organiztion. So I think he is more likely to be a valuable asset to our hockey club.


I personally voted DP as #1 in our prospect poll for these reasons; but at the same time acknowledge that Morrow could end up being the best of them all if he reaches his full potential.

Pretty much what I was thinking.

I think what gets overlooked a lot about DePo is his overall composure and mental toughness (on and off the ice). It seems like nothing gets to him and he takes everything is stride. That aspect can really speed up development.

IMO Morrow will end up being the better player, but Pouliot may hold more value to the Penguins right now because of what he brings.

penguins2946* 12-21-2012 10:36 PM

Morrow is the more gritty, 2-way D than Pouliot. That being said, Pouliot has an incredible hockey sense and has amazing passing skills. I'd consider them equal.

Mister Hockey 12-21-2012 11:04 PM

Morrow could have played in the NHL last year. I would have picked Forsberg.

Dangles78 12-21-2012 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Hockey (Post 56731489)
Morrow could have played in the NHL last year. I would have picked Forsberg.

Well that's it guys. Open and shut case.

Jaded-Fan 12-22-2012 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Hockey (Post 56731489)
Morrow could have played in the NHL last year. I would have picked Forsberg.

I would have picked Forsberg as well, as would have about everyone in the arena who groaned with me when DP was announced.

That said I would have the same assesment if we had taken Forsberg.

Morrow is the more sure thing, DP is possibilities. As you said Morrow is almost NHL ready. I think that they rolled the dice on Pouliot and this soon into his career it is too early to make that comparison fair. The same would be true of Forsberg had we taken him.

GlenngarryGlencross 12-22-2012 05:29 AM

What is the argument for Pouliot here? I pick Morrow all day. Pouliot v. Maatta is a better comparison, even then I prefer Maatta.

Will Hunting 12-22-2012 05:45 AM

Itīs really close in my view. Morrow, while very good, is getting awfully overrated here. And Pouliot is underrated by a lot of people. Pens organization picked him for a reason (I am not saying it was a right pick though) and heīs just doing everything Pens could expect from him so far. He has a very good season, Morrow has never been any better in Portland than Pouliot is right now. Only time will tell the truth.

limite* 12-22-2012 07:31 AM

QUOTE=Will Hunting;56734685]Itīs really close in my view. Morrow, while very good, is getting awfully overrated here.
[/QUOTE]

That's for sure. It all comes from him being a lat cut in camp last year and almost making the team. That was exactly what was said about Bisonnette, and look how he turned out. Also Morrow has been terrible in WBS this year. The idea that he is ready for the NHL is laughable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will Hunting (Post 56734685)
And Pouliot is underrated by a lot of people. Pens organization picked him for a reason

Yeah, its the same reason that they picked Angelo Esposito.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will Hunting (Post 56734685)
and heīs just doing everything Pens could expect from him so far.

Really? What exactly is that. He didn't make TC. He isn't scoring at a particularly high pace. His defense is still suspect. So what has he done?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will Hunting (Post 56734685)
He has a very good season, Morrow has never been any better in Portland than Pouliot is right now.

Oh really? And you know this exactly how? You watched Portland a lot, have you? Or are you just making this up based on what other people on HF who also haven't seen them play say?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will Hunting (Post 56734685)
Only time will tell the truth.

Thanks for the deep insight.

It's amazing how anyone could have an opinion on a topic like this. You could throw a blanket over Morrow, Pouliot, along with Depres and Maata. There is virtually nothing accomplishment-wise to distinguish among them. All are defensemen who are #20-30 picks. (That's where Pouliot belongs, especially in a good draft). All were good, but not exceptional in juniors. Morrow and Depres have both been terrible at WBS and with Maata and Pouliot is still in junior, so can't separate them on this basis. They even differ little in skill set, except for Pouliot, who is somewhat better offensively and worse defensively than the rest. Maybe a professional scout could tell you that one is better than the others, but I'm not a professional scout and neither is anyone who mouths off here about who is better.

The basic fact about prospects, even "good" ones, drafted outside very top is that the vast majority amount to nothing significant. As anyone with a brain knows, you can't making predictions of the future without taking apriori probabilities into account. This is a fundamental reasoning error commonly made by people who aren't very bright. So if you you don't have any real facts, the best prediction is that the prospect will never be a high impact player. The Pens have a lot of good but not great prospects. (People talk about Morrow and Pouliot as if they were Hamilton and Gormley level prospects) This improves the odds that at least one will turn out well. But anyone who thinks that he can predict which is in full delusion mode.

Le Magnifique 66 12-22-2012 07:35 AM

Got to give Pouliot at least another year or two to see where his development is at.

Mister Hockey 12-22-2012 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Magnifique 66 (Post 56735921)
Got to give Pouliot at least another year or two to see where his development is at.

I agree. But when Morrow was teamed with Letang in preseason he did not look out of place.

jmelm 12-22-2012 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Hockey (Post 56738683)
I agree. But when Morrow was teamed with Letang in preseason he did not look out of place.


PRESEASON. It means nothing. You're playing against lesser competition, and the games don't matter at all. Plus, it's easy for a young guy to have adrenalin pumping and play a good game or three, but try keeping that up for a full season against the best of the best, when games matter.


I have high hopes for Morrow, but he is a guy who will have to hone his craft over time. I expect him to spend at least 2 full years, if not 3, in WBS, with perhaps the odd call up in year 2 or 3, but he is far from ready. He wasn't even consistent at the junior level in the WHL last year.

Burgs 12-22-2012 11:34 AM

Ideally they end up complementing each other on the Pens. Morrow has the better shot, more strength and a mean streak, Pouliot has better vision and passing. Right now value should be close to equal but at any rate it's too early for the organization to make any decisions.

IHWR 12-22-2012 11:55 AM

Morrow all day. I think he's our best prospect.

JTG 12-22-2012 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by limite (Post 56735853)
That's for sure. It all comes from him being a lat cut in camp last year and almost making the team. That was exactly what was said about Bisonnette, and look how he turned out. Also Morrow has been terrible in WBS this year. The idea that he is ready for the NHL is laughable.



Yeah, its the same reason that they picked Angelo Esposito.



Really? What exactly is that. He didn't make TC. He isn't scoring at a particularly high pace. His defense is still suspect. So what has he done?



Oh really? And you know this exactly how? You watched Portland a lot, have you? Or are you just making this up based on what other people on HF who also haven't seen them play say?



Thanks for the deep insight.

It's amazing how anyone could have an opinion on a topic like this. You could throw a blanket over Morrow, Pouliot, along with Depres and Maata. There is virtually nothing accomplishment-wise to distinguish among them. All are defensemen who are #20-30 picks. (That's where Pouliot belongs, especially in a good draft). All were good, but not exceptional in juniors. Morrow and Depres have both been terrible at WBS and with Maata and Pouliot is still in junior, so can't separate them on this basis. They even differ little in skill set, except for Pouliot, who is somewhat better offensively and worse defensively than the rest. Maybe a professional scout could tell you that one is better than the others, but I'm not a professional scout and neither is anyone who mouths off here about who is better.

The basic fact about prospects, even "good" ones, drafted outside very top is that the vast majority amount to nothing significant. As anyone with a brain knows, you can't making predictions of the future without taking apriori probabilities into account. This is a fundamental reasoning error commonly made by people who aren't very bright. So if you you don't have any real facts, the best prediction is that the prospect will never be a high impact player. The Pens have a lot of good but not great prospects. (People talk about Morrow and Pouliot as if they were Hamilton and Gormley level prospects) This improves the odds that at least one will turn out well. But anyone who thinks that he can predict which is in full delusion mode.

I've seen you mention Pouliot's scoring in the WHL numerous times and how you are not impressed by it. He has 36 points in 35 games which is 2nd in the entire league.

I'd also suggest you change the tune of your postings. Guys who have postings here that read like your's don't last very long typically.

cassius 12-22-2012 02:42 PM

Morrow for me - as he is a safer bet to reach his full potential.

As far as Pouliot, he seems like a high risk / high reward type. If he pans out, he could be a Mike Green / Letang type. If not? He could end up being a Marc Andre Bergeron type, which would really suck. The thing that scares me about Pouliot is his lack of toughness/nastiness. If you want to play defense at the NHL level there needs to be a certain mean streak and I just don't see it.

I hope for Sheros sake that Pouliot pans out given that there was so many high-potential forwards on the board when he was drafted, but it's still a crap shoot at this point.

Dangles78 12-22-2012 03:26 PM

I think people are forgetting that the question is about who holds more value going forward, not necessarily who will reach their full potential.

Tasty Biscuits 12-22-2012 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cassius (Post 56743913)
I hope for Sheros sake that Pouliot pans out given that there was so many high-potential forwards on the board when he was drafted, but it's still a crap shoot at this point.

Strongly disagree. It wasn't a great draft for high-end forwards. Sucks that it happened during the one draft we had a Top-10 pick, but that's how it goes.

And Pouliot can't and probably won't ever be able to lay people out, but he already gets more physically involved than a guy like, say, Goligoski ever did.

Tasty Biscuits 12-22-2012 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JTG (Post 56742643)
I've seen you mention Pouliot's scoring in the WHL numerous times and how you are not impressed by it. He has 36 points in 35 games which is 2nd in the entire league.

I'd also suggest you change the tune of your postings. Guys who have postings here that read like your's don't last very long typically.

You're arguing against a brick wall at this point.

Jacob 12-22-2012 05:42 PM

I think Morrow is more complete and is a safer pick. Pouliot has more skill and may have more upside, at least as a point producer.

Gallatin 12-22-2012 07:00 PM

With another two years of development, Morrow is a solid second pairing guy IMO.

Pouliot's upside is higher though due to his PP QB skills, based around vision and passing.

Pouliot is at least trying to play a meaner more physical game, but he really needs to add 15 or 20 lbs of muscle to be effective with that style, and he does have the frame to do it. I really like that he is trying to be tough though, and he would be my pick by a hair due to higher upside.

TheRollingPuck 12-22-2012 08:45 PM

I feel unworthy of contributing an opinion on prospects after Jhelm provides an insightful scouting report. :laugh:

Morrow, but I honestly don't have any idea. He just strikes me as a guy that will be used in more situations than Pouliot.

Darth Vitale 12-22-2012 09:36 PM

Morrow shatters goalie masks.


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