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-   -   Marcel Dionne vs. Teemu Selanne (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1311343)

Czech Your Math 12-24-2012 07:10 AM

Marcel Dionne vs. Teemu Selanne
 
Which player was better? It seems really close to me, but curious what others think.

Psycho Papa Joe 12-24-2012 09:01 AM

Dionne I guess, due to being more consistent year to year. Higher peak, evidenced by his Pearson award and Art.

steveott 12-24-2012 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Czech Your Math (Post 56779013)
Which player was better? It seems really close .

statswise is close.

slightly teemu because of:

*competition level
*international games
*intangibles
*cup

after some 10 years or so i think they are considered pretty the same on all time lists. (between 40 - 50)

Czech Your Math 12-24-2012 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe (Post 56779879)
Dionne I guess, due to being more consistent year to year. Higher peak, evidenced by his Pearson award and Art.

I'm not sure Dionne really peaked much higher, although his two Pearsons are impressive. I agree Dionne's (extended) prime is more consistent though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by steveott (Post 56779957)
statswise is close.

slightly teemu because of:

*competition level
*international games

*intangibles
*cup

after some 10 years or so i think they are considered pretty the same on all time lists. (between 40 - 50)

I especially agree with those factors. What's Selanne's edge in intangibles? I doubt most have Selanne in their top 50, and many may not have him in their top 100.

quoipourquoi 12-24-2012 09:56 AM

Dionne for prime, Selanne for career.

Kloparren 12-24-2012 10:00 AM

Why isn't there a poll section in the HOH?

vadim sharifijanov 12-24-2012 10:38 AM

this isn't going to end well. but dionne for same career but more of it.

seventieslord 12-24-2012 10:39 AM

look, I know there's a big reawakening going on, as to just how good Selanne is (better than Kurri and Hull in a lot of people's minds, and justifiably so!) but better than Dionne, who was top-5 in points 7 times including 4 times top-2? No, I can't see that.

Czech Your Math 12-24-2012 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord (Post 56781287)
look, I know there's a big reawakening going on, as to just how good Selanne is (better than Kurri and Hull in a lot of people's minds, and justifiably so!) but better than Dionne, who was top-5 in points 7 times including 4 times top-2? No, I can't see that.

Selanne finished second in scoring in separate years to Lemieux and Jagr.

Also, his finishes vs. Canadian players only:
1,2,3,3,3,5,5,8,9

quoipourquoi 12-24-2012 11:44 AM

Anyone who doesn't count Selanne's 8th in 1998 as a de facto 2nd is going to get a drunken Christmas Eve lecture from yours truly.

Czech Your Math 12-24-2012 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quoipourquoi (Post 56782557)
Anyone who doesn't count Selanne's 8th in 1998 as a de facto 2nd is going to get a drunken Christmas Eve lecture from yours truly.

He was second among forwards in Hart voting, but third in PPG and 8th in points.

Selanne had nice run in Hart voting from '97-'99:

'97- two NA forwards ahead of him (Lemieux... and Selanne's linemate Kariya)

'98- no NA forwards ahead of him

'99- no NA forwards ahead of him

That's similar to Dionne's '79-'81 peak (3rd in '79, 2nd to Gretzky in '80, 2nd to Gretzky among forwards in '81).

seventieslord 12-24-2012 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Czech Your Math (Post 56781691)
Selanne finished second in scoring in separate years to Lemieux and Jagr.

Also, his finishes vs. Canadian players only:
1,2,3,3,3,5,5,8,9

I donít really believe in looking at things that way. I realize that there may have been players in the WHA and overseas who may have finished ahead of him if they were in the NHL, and Selanne didnít have that benefit, but was anyone going to really come and push him out of the top-2, or even the top-5? Thatís a stretch.

TheDevilMadeMe 12-24-2012 12:36 PM

I'm honestly not sure, but I'm probably lower than Dionne than most, due to his lack of performance in big games. Selanne doesn't have much of a playoff record, but he's been fantastic internationally.

Mike Farkas 12-24-2012 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord (Post 56781287)
look, I know there's a big reawakening going on, as to just how good Selanne is (better than Kurri and Hull in a lot of people's minds, and justifiably so!) but better than Dionne, who was top-5 in points 7 times including 4 times top-2? No, I can't see that.

Yeah? Well...you voted for it! ;)

seventieslord 12-24-2012 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Farkas (Post 56783613)
Yeah? Well...you voted for it! ;)

what?? no i didn't!



..............oh.


I assure you, that was an accident. It's all Dionne in this one, for me.





Weird thought: by extension, this means that there might be some people out there who have Teemu Selanne ahead of Phil Esposito, right?

zeus3007* 12-24-2012 01:54 PM

Selanne was never the best player in the world, you could argue Dionne was for a couple of years. Plus Selanne had a few injury riddled seasons that were less than spectacular. I think considering these, you have to look at Dionne's NHL career as better. International play by Selanne really brings it back to a toss up for me.

In terms of overall skill, I think Teemu is/was a better scorer, but Dionne was a better playmaker. I like Selanne more but objectively need to consider Dionne as slightly better.

zeus3007* 12-24-2012 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Czech Your Math (Post 56781691)
Selanne finished second in scoring in separate years to Lemieux and Jagr.

Also, his finishes vs. Canadian players only:
1,2,3,3,3,5,5,8,9

You can't use this argument, it is inherently flawed.

Actp 12-24-2012 03:30 PM

Did not do much research, as usual ,but I will take Selanne. They are similar and I think close in many respects but I fel Selanne has a more mature game with slightly better defensive qualities to it.

vadim sharifijanov 12-24-2012 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeus3007 (Post 56784917)
Selanne was never the best player in the world, you could argue Dionne was for a couple of years. Plus Selanne had a few injury riddled seasons that were less than spectacular. I think considering these, you have to look at Dionne's NHL career as better. International play by Selanne really brings it back to a toss up for me.

In terms of overall skill, I think Teemu is/was a better scorer, but Dionne was a better playmaker. I like Selanne more but objectively need to consider Dionne as slightly better.

i'm not sure you could really ever make a credible claim that dionne was the best player in the world.

Hardyvan123 12-24-2012 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord (Post 56782905)
I donít really believe in looking at things that way. I realize that there may have been players in the WHA and overseas who may have finished ahead of him if they were in the NHL, and Selanne didnít have that benefit, but was anyone going to really come and push him out of the top-2, or even the top-5? Thatís a stretch.

I'm not sure what CYM exact point is but I have used this in the past as well because we all know it's unfair to penalize 06 guys for not playing against Europeans.

So doing a closer apple to apple comp seems fair to me.

The point is that Selanne, and especially for anyone after the early 90's the competition pool was alot more difficult because of the influx in terms of quality and quantity of non traditional feeder systems into the NHL.

I can see the resistance to it in the histroy section as it does upset the apple cart in the way of thinking of old time players compared to fairly recent ones.

I still took Dionne, primarily because his career group of Dmen were below average offensively IMO.

Selanne played with some good offensive Dmen and players as well.

steveott 12-24-2012 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Czech Your Math (Post 56780241)
What's Selanne's edge in intangibles? I doubt most have Selanne in their top 50, and many may not have him in their top 100.

i said after 10 years. Next "Johnny Canuck" to score about 700 goals will tear up a hole on the lists (after that its hard to deny selanne)

intangibles?
his rookie season which LOOKS so mind-boggling (even if its not)

Regal 12-24-2012 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord (Post 56781287)
look, I know there's a big reawakening going on, as to just how good Selanne is (better than Kurri and Hull in a lot of people's minds, and justifiably so!) but better than Dionne, who was top-5 in points 7 times including 4 times top-2? No, I can't see that.

Pretty much how I feel. I think they were similar in their primes, but Dionne's prime was quite a bit longer. Selanne has a weird career arc, but even with his post-lockout renaissance point- finishes, has anyone really considered him a top 10 level player since 2000?. From 95-99 he was great, and then he has his rookie year, and a few other very good finishes, but I feel like the fact that he's still a very good player at his age is making his prime length seem longer.

King Forsberg 12-24-2012 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steveott (Post 56789685)
i said after 10 years. Next "Johnny Canuck" to score about 700 goals will tear up a hole on the lists (after that its hard to deny selanne)

intangibles?
his rookie season which LOOKS so mind-boggling (even if its not)

I don't understand what this has to do with intangibles.

Sens Rule 12-24-2012 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord (Post 56781287)
look, I know there's a big reawakening going on, as to just how good Selanne is (better than Kurri and Hull in a lot of people's minds, and justifiably so!) but better than Dionne, who was top-5 in points 7 times including 4 times top-2? No, I can't see that.

I agree. Comparing Dionne to Esposito is one thing. To Selanne is another. Selanne had a few years of being Dionne quality... Dionne had like 10 years.

Dionne gets overrated vs the very best and underrated vs the very, very good (and deserving HHOFers)

Canadiens1958 12-24-2012 10:07 PM

Offensive Defensemen
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 (Post 56787743)
I'm not sure what CYM exact point is but I have used this in the past as well because we all know it's unfair to penalize 06 guys for not playing against Europeans.

So doing a closer apple to apple comp seems fair to me.

The point is that Selanne, and especially for anyone after the early 90's the competition pool was alot more difficult because of the influx in terms of quality and quantity of non traditional feeder systems into the NHL.

I can see the resistance to it in the histroy section as it does upset the apple cart in the way of thinking of old time players compared to fairly recent ones.

I still took Dionne, primarily because his career group of Dmen were below average offensively IMO.

Selanne played with some good offensive Dmen and players as well.

Could you expand on the bolded comment?

Playing with below average offensive defensemen tends to create relay assists for centers since such defensemen do not rush nor do they have the passing skills to get the stretch pass to the wingers directly.


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