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-   -   Proposal between BUF and PHO (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=13116)

lecherous 09-21-2003 12:29 PM

Proposal between BUF and PHO
 
My proposal :

To Phoenix : Tim Connolly

To Buffalo : Paul Mara

It seems Phoenix is deep in young defenseman with Vananen, Tanabe, Mara, Tselios, Suchy, and Ference. I think Connolly would be a good fit there, because Langkow could play wing and Connolly could possibly fit as a 2nd line center.

As for Buffalo, Connolly just isn't a proper fit, but is still just barely 22 with loads of potential. Buffalo really needs a big, young defenseman that can move the puck and throw his weight around a bit, and I think Mara would be a perfect fit for them.

How about some feedback from Phoenix fans? I don't exactly know where Mara fits in on the depth chart, but if this isn't a possibility, what about any of the other young d-men...maybe Tanabe or Vananen?

IkeaMonkey* 09-21-2003 12:30 PM

Whoooooooooooopie, the 'Yotes get ANOTHER center....

Kritty 09-21-2003 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lecherous
My proposal :

To Phoenix : Tim Connolly

To Buffalo : Paul Mara

It seems Phoenix is deep in young defenseman with Vananen, Tanabe, Mara, Tselios, Suchy, and Ference. I think Connolly would be a good fit there, because Langkow could play wing and Connolly could possibly fit as a 2nd line center.

As for Buffalo, Connolly just isn't a proper fit, but is still just barely 22 with loads of potential. Buffalo really needs a big, young defenseman that can move the puck and throw his weight around a bit, and I think Mara would be a perfect fit for them.

How about some feedback from Phoenix fans? I don't exactly know where Mara fits in on the depth chart, but if this isn't a possibility, what about any of the other young d-men...maybe Tanabe or Vananen?

Prepare to get hammered by Coyotes fans on this one. According to them, their young dmen are future superstars and carry huge trade value.

As for your proposal, that won't get it done. Mara is a solid dman that will continue to improve. He's a likely 2-3 guy in a few years. Connolly has all the tools to be a star but he can't put it together. I think he needs a change of scenery. I actually think Edmonton could be a real good fit for him.

kenabnrmal 09-21-2003 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kritty
Prepare to get hammered by Coyotes fans on this one. According to them, their young dmen are future superstars and carry huge trade value.

As for your proposal, that won't get it done. Mara is a solid dman that will continue to improve. He's a likely 2-3 guy in a few years. Connolly has all the tools to be a star but he can't put it together. I think he needs a change of scenery. I actually think Edmonton could be a real good fit for him.

Thanks for the first paragraph...using one or two vocal members of a team's fan base to geralize about the entire group of them right off the bat like that really chips away at the credibility of the remainder of the post.

You're largely right, however. He might not be on any other team in the league, but on the Yotes Mara is as close to a number one guy that you'll find. He's shows the ability to be a LEGITIMATE top-3 d-man, and defense is just not an area the Yotes can afford to deal from. Based on that alone, the deal doesn't get done. All things being equal, I just wouldn't deal Mara for Connolly. Not good value for the Yotes. Add in the fact that they have 6 million centers already, and it just makes no sense from the Yotes perspective.

Personally I'd like to see Connolly dealt. The change of scenery comment sounds pretty accurate. He's got loads of skill. You'd think a guy like that would break out eventually.

Kritty 09-21-2003 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenabnrmal
Thanks for the first paragraph...using one or two vocal members of a team's fan base to geralize about the entire group of them right off the bat like that really chips away at the credibility of the remainder of the post.

You're largely right, however. He might not be on any other team in the league, but on the Yotes Mara is as close to a number one guy that you'll find. He's shows the ability to be a LEGITIMATE top-3 d-man, and defense is just not an area the Yotes can afford to deal from. Based on that alone, the deal doesn't get done. All things being equal, I just wouldn't deal Mara for Connolly. Not good value for the Yotes. Add in the fact that they have 6 million centers already, and it just makes no sense from the Yotes perspective.

Personally I'd like to see Connolly dealt. The change of scenery comment sounds pretty accurate. He's got loads of skill. You'd think a guy like that would break out eventually.

I never meant to generalize all Coyotes fans, that was a mistake on my part, but there are those vocal ones that will eat this proposal alive and are sure to hurt that Coyote fan reputation.

I thought Phoenix had alot of depth on defence? Sounds like you're saying that they don't have the depth to be dealing away a dman. That's different than what I've been hearing and reading.

_Del_ 09-21-2003 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kritty
I never meant to generalize all Coyotes fans, that was a mistake on my part, but there are those vocal ones that will eat this proposal alive and are sure to hurt that Coyote fan reputation.

I thought Phoenix had alot of depth on defence? Sounds like you're saying that they don't have the depth to be dealing away a dman. That's different than what I've been hearing and reading.

Well, when you deal away your #1 AND 2 dmen and get back Tanabe and Hulse to replace them at the NHL level, you've got some holes. While the Coyotes have a fair number of very serviceable dmen Mara is the only one with a complete enough game to step into a #1 role with any success. Ossi hasn't shown enough consistant offense to take such a role yet.
They could afford to deal a dman, but imo the only way it would make sense is if they were packaging to get a MORE capable dman. And their best dman for another center isn't going to do much for them. Of course, they DID deal Teppo for Sillinger, so what do I know....

kenabnrmal 09-21-2003 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kritty
I never meant to generalize all Coyotes fans, that was a mistake on my part, but there are those vocal ones that will eat this proposal alive and are sure to hurt that Coyote fan reputation.

I thought Phoenix had alot of depth on defence? Sounds like you're saying that they don't have the depth to be dealing away a dman. That's different than what I've been hearing and reading.

Fair enough. Hope I didn't come off too harshly, just getting tired of Yotes fans getting labelled because of a few (or one, not sure...) louder posters.

_Del_ nailed it really. They have a number of decent d-men, but Mara is at the top of the ladder at this point. They don't have the higher end talent on d necessary to make a deal of this sort.

lecherous 09-21-2003 03:29 PM

Alright, fair on Mara. What would it take Buffalo to get Vananen or Tanabe?

Edit : Blockbuster (sort of - at least for a small market team it's a blockbuster) idea -

To BUF : Nagy, Tanabe

To PHO : Connolly/Afinogenov, Dumont, Pominville/similar prospect/dp

kenabnrmal 09-21-2003 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lecherous
Alright, fair on Mara. What would it take Buffalo to get Vananen or Tanabe?

Edit : Blockbuster (sort of - at least for a small market team it's a blockbuster) idea -

To BUF : Nagy, Tanabe

To PHO : Connolly/Afinogenov, Dumont, Pominville/similar prospect/dp

Nagy I'd group similarly to Mara. On most teams he's not a top liner, but on the Yotes who are short on goalscoring, he's a first liner. He's demonstrated the ability to score a decent amount in the league, he's still got some offensive upside to him, and he's not a defensive liability. Right now there is very little reason to give him up, as he's the sort of player the Yotes are trying to keep/gain. You only deal him if you're upgrading, and neither Connolly or Afinogenov are upgrades over him. I don't know much about the prospect, but Dumont I like. I'd definitely be interested in a deal with Tanabe and Dumont being the centerpieces, but I think Yote management wants Tanabe for his mobility and offensive potential (want to give Coffey some time to work with him), so such a deal is doubtful.

PhoPhan 09-21-2003 04:09 PM

I'd pass quickly on both deals. The Coyotes don't really have any pressing needs. Obviously, this year's team could be greatly improved, but they most likely won't do that at an expense to the future. Nagy and Mara are core players and will likely be key players for many years. As for Tanabe, if he can do this year what he did in his rookie year in Carolina, he will fall into that category as well. There are a lot of guys on the Coyotes roster that will be very tough to trade. Frankly, the only move I seem them making in the near future is the movement of a goaltender, which I would hope would bring a prospect or two.

_Del_ 09-21-2003 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenabnrmal
I'd definitely be interested in a deal with Tanabe and Dumont being the centerpieces, but I think Yote management wants Tanabe for his mobility and offensive potential (want to give Coffey some time to work with him), so such a deal is doubtful.

Honestly, this was EXACTLY my first reaction. It'd be interesting.. Perhaps through in a winger from PHX for one from BUF and try to even things out, but that's a deal that I'd look at seriously. Flipside, however, is that I think mgmt is looking to hold on to Tanabe for awhile...

Edit: Thorburn looks like a guy that fits the mold PHX is looking at. And Patrick wouldn't be a bad guy to help mentor the d in PHX. I'm not making a proposal of anykind, but those just hit me as likely candidates...

WhoIsJimBob 09-22-2003 03:19 AM

What is Mara's status with regards to a 1-way versus 2-way contract and can he be sent to Rochester without passing through waivers?

The Sabres already have 7 defensemen that are either slated for Buffalo or have 1-way contracts (Zhitnik, Kalinin, Tallinder, Campbell, Delmore, Patrick, and Fitzpatrick) and that's before they sign McKee to a 1-way deal. And Tallinder is the only member of that group on a 2-way deal that might be snet down.

I can't see the Sabres adding another defenseman that falls into the Tallinder/Kalinin type mode and that where I see Mara fitting in.

Plus, the Sabres have said all offseason that they are pretty happy with their defense corps, although they wouldn't mind adding a little grit to the unit.

With the numbers situation on the Sabres blueline I almost wonder if they need to make a 2 for 1 deal with defensemen to open up a roster spot. Or will they move a defenseman for a pick/prospect. It would go against some of what they've said during the offseason, but I'm not sure if the new ownership will be down with paying Fitzpatrick NHL money to play in Rochester because I can't see them sending Tallinder down right now.

Ensane 09-22-2003 08:05 AM

I can't confirm, but I'm guessing based on Mara's career and age that he's had a two-way contract since he came over from Tampa.

hbk 09-22-2003 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensane
I can't confirm, but I'm guessing based on Mara's career and age that he's had a two-way contract since he came over from Tampa.


Mara did sign a contract this summer. It's a question though that really doesn't matter as there is absolutely no way he will play a game in the AHL this season unless it is on a conditioning stint after an injury. He is an established NHL defensemen and right now is Phoenix's number 1 guy. He won't come cheaply.

With Buffalo's acquisition of Briere last year, Connelly's skill set becomes rather redundant. IMO, Buffalo needs some size on their top 2 lines to give some space to their skill players. I can see Connelly being dealt; however, I would expect Phoenix's interest to be lukewarm as they have made a concerted effort to target two-way physical players (hence why PP specialist Briere was dealt in the first place). Connelly doesn't fall into that category. I can't see Phoenix parting with a young defensemen unless it is one of their second tier prospects and realistically why would Buffalo do that unless they were absolutely desperate to shed salary. Even then, Buffalo can and will likely get a better deal from another team.

_Del_ 09-22-2003 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Bob
What is Mara's status with regards to a 1-way versus 2-way contract and can he be sent to Rochester without passing through waivers?

I can't see the Sabres adding another defenseman that falls into the Tallinder/Kalinin type mode and that where I see Mara fitting in.

I don't think it matters if he was waiver exempt or not, b/c there is no way he's going to the 'A'.. That's laughable...
I don't think a comparison of Tallinder/Kalinin is fair either -- in short, I think your assessment of Mara is way off.
Mara showed real consistancy last year, and a very solid two-way game. I'm not going to pretend I know where he'd fit in exactly in Buffalo's dcorps, but I do know he makes the top 6 without ANY problem at all. Likely top3.
If you had mentioned Tanabe (or Campbell) for that matter, I could see your pov, but Mara is light years ahead of these guys currently: he's based the 'potential' plateau and is a real commodity. That doesn't mean he can't improve, but rather that he has value from performance rather than simply 'potential'.

WhoIsJimBob 09-23-2003 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Del_
I don't think it matters if he was waiver exempt or not, b/c there is no way he's going to the 'A'.. That's laughable...
I don't think a comparison of Tallinder/Kalinin is fair either -- in short, I think your assessment of Mara is way off.
Mara showed real consistancy last year, and a very solid two-way game. I'm not going to pretend I know where he'd fit in exactly in Buffalo's dcorps, but I do know he makes the top 6 without ANY problem at all. Likely top3.
If you had mentioned Tanabe (or Campbell) for that matter, I could see your pov, but Mara is light years ahead of these guys currently: he's based the 'potential' plateau and is a real commodity. That doesn't mean he can't improve, but rather that he has value from performance rather than simply 'potential'.

I was talking about the type of game they play. From everything I've read Mara plays the same type of game that Kalinin and Tallinder do. Mara is more advanced offensively, but he's a smooth skating 2 way defenseman with solid offensive skills. That's the way that Kalinin and Tallinder look to be developing as well. Add to the mix that all three are left handed shots and I don't see how Mara fills the most crying needs on the Sabres blueline: toughness and another true right sided defenseman.

Just like Connolly is the same type of player as Briere, but Briere is further along development wise.

Gwyddbwyll 09-23-2003 10:55 AM

Bear in mind Mara scored 10 goals last year.. that ranks up there with the top 20 defensemen in the league.. level with guys like Redden. Little-known is the fact that only Gonchar and A.Markov scored more even strength goals than Paul Mara (and only because Andrei netted a couple of empty netters).

I think that's pretty good reason for Coyote fans to like him. Regardless of what Kritty thinks he wont be "a 2-3 guy in a few years" because he already is one and if he masters the PP with Numminen gone.. he could get better.

Jim Bob - Mara can play tough.. he has all the tools to be a No.1 type.. the pressure will be on next year to see if he can fulfil that role for the Coyotes because none of the others will. The best d-man the Coyotes can actually spare is Suchy or Hulse but I see them preferring to stick with developing Kolanos/Taffe if Connolly cant be sent down - and Buffalo preferring better value.

_Del_ 09-23-2003 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Bob
I was talking about the type of game they play. From everything I've read Mara plays the same type of game that Kalinin and Tallinder do. Mara is more advanced offensively, but he's a smooth skating 2 way defenseman with solid offensive skills. That's the way that Kalinin and Tallinder look to be developing as well. Add to the mix that all three are left handed shots and I don't see how Mara fills the most crying needs on the Sabres blueline: toughness and another true right sided defenseman.

Just like Connolly is the same type of player as Briere, but Briere is further along development wise.

Well, trying not to be a homer (if it helps, I'm a Hawks fan over PHX -- pity me), Mara is much more advanced than Kalinin and Tallinder, who do both look to be good dmen. He also is HUGE and when he plays mean, the rink feels it. He's also often found in the corners after the play in with all the face-washing, yapping, etc. He's certainly tough.
I've stated this before in another thread I believe, that my only complaint is that he doesn't play with a mean streak as consistantly as I'd like. But he does have one lurking in there, and it's ugly when he uses his size *or a thing of beauty depending on your pov* Overall, his performance improved considerably over the course of last year, and I was highly impressed and have overcome my initial skepticism. He's much more reliable now, and still has all the tools that could see him go further...

I'll agree with the Connolly-- Briere comparison. I like both players, though I wasn't heartbroken to see Briere go really... But if PHX unloaded Briere to get bigger, Connolly seems like a bad fit here...


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