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-   -   Value of: Sam Gagner and Ryan Whitney (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1312061)

oilersfan11 12-26-2012 06:08 PM

Sam Gagner and Ryan Whitney
 
What could the Oilers get for Sam Gagner and Ryan Whitney?

WeridAl 12-26-2012 06:41 PM

With Whitney being a UFA next season and the HF's hate for the Oilers Gagner this should be interesting. :baghead:

Top 6 Spaling 12-26-2012 07:48 PM

At this point, it looks like there will be no season, so this is Whitney's UFA rights and Gagner's RFA rights. Not saying it's a bad package, just saying not to expect that much. Whitney's rights are probably worth a 3rd/4th assuming the lockout breaks in, say, April. Later picks the later the lockout ends. Gagner alone is worth a late 1st or good #3/4D or young 2/3rd line tweener.

Together, probably a 2nd liner or 2nd pairing Dman. Oilers are better off signing Whitney before even thinking about moving him.

WeridAl 12-26-2012 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Top 6 Spaling (Post 56822175)
At this point, it looks like there will be no season, so this is Whitney's UFA rights and Gagner's RFA rights. Not saying it's a bad package, just saying not to expect that much. Whitney's rights are probably worth a 3rd/4th assuming the lockout breaks in, say, April. Later picks the later the lockout ends. Gagner alone is worth a late 1st or good #3/4D or young 2/3rd line tweener.

Together, probably a 2nd liner or 2nd pairing Dman. Oilers are better off signing Whitney before even thinking about moving him.

Fair assessment, although I don't think Whitney is resigned unless it's at a discount and even then I'm not sure.

Cold Dome Beers 12-26-2012 09:08 PM

Gagner = average third liner
Whitney = injury prone dman

so, maybe a late second round pick.

DuckEatinShark 12-26-2012 09:15 PM

Gagner's value right now is similar to Turris' value when he got traded to Ottawa, which was a good D-prospect (Rundblad) and a 2nd. Gagner should get something similar to that if he got traded.

Whitney doesn't have much value as he is UFA. He might get you a 4th if he got traded early. Teams looking for a #3 type defenseman might give you a 3rd if they feel they can sign him.

55 12-27-2012 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DuckEatinShark (Post 56823731)
Gagner's value right now is similar to Turris' value when he got traded to Ottawa, which was a good D-prospect (Rundblad) and a 2nd. Gagner should get something similar to that if he got traded.

Whitney doesn't have much value as he is UFA. He might get you a 4th if he got traded early. Teams looking for a #3 type defenseman might give you a 3rd if they feel they can sign him.

I don't think Gagner has the value Turris did. Turris had a much higher potential. Gagner is what he is. He's not good enough to be a top 6 player, and he's not big or responsible enough to play 3rd line.

GordieHoweHatTrick 12-27-2012 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 96 (Post 56832743)
I don't think Gagner has the value Turris did. Turris had a much higher potential. Gagner is what he is. He's not good enough to be a top 6 player on a good team, and he's not big or responsible enough to play 3rd line on a good team.

Added the bolded so Oil fans can differentiate before they chime in saying yes he is

Minnesota 12-27-2012 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 96 (Post 56832743)
I don't think Gagner has the value Turris did. Turris had a much higher potential. Gagner is what he is. He's not good enough to be a top 6 player, and he's not big or responsible enough to play 3rd line.

Nailed it.

Buckets and Gloves 12-27-2012 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tangerine (Post 56823605)
Gagner = average third liner
Whitney = injury prone dman

so, maybe a late second round pick.

Yeah, seems right... I could see someone giving up a 2nd rounder for Gagner, or maybe a team desperate for talent upfront gives up a late 1st in a weak draft (so not this years)

Whitney's UFA rights may land a conditional 3rd or 4th if signed.

BarDownBobo 12-27-2012 12:36 PM

I don't understand the logic that Gagner isn't a second line center. The numbers say differently. As for the value of them, the only way those two have a value worth trading them is if there is a season, and Whitney shows he's healthy. At that point, can probably move the two of them for a package of picks/prospects to a team looking to make a run.

zytz 12-27-2012 07:46 PM

17 pesos

nitz 12-27-2012 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tangerine (Post 56823605)
Gagner = average third liner
Whitney = injury prone dman

so, maybe a late second round pick.

Disagree. I believe that Gagner is easily a 2nd line centre. He's a solid, loyal soldier who works HARD. I don't understand HF's hatred of him. He's a 2nd line centre on most teams, minus the obvious ones like Vancouver and San Jose.

Eskimo44 12-28-2012 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nitz (Post 56850157)
Disagree. I believe that Gagner is easily a 2nd line centre. He's a solid, loyal soldier who works HARD. I don't understand HF's hatred of him. He's a 2nd line centre on most teams, minus the obvious ones like Vancouver and San Jose.

Most of those who hate him don't either, it's the HF hive mind taking over.

momo 12-28-2012 02:34 AM

As for Gagner. 0.5 ppg young players are always wanted.

If I were to guess, if Oilers trade him it would be for a roster D-man or a roster defensive minded forward.

Cam98 12-28-2012 02:38 AM

no on wants Gagner, hes to slow.

Lowe in Oil 12-28-2012 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oilersfan11 (Post 56820141)
What could the Oilers get for Sam Gagner and Ryan Whitney?

No reason to trade either right now.

Whitney will have a great year = 40ish points. - He wont be relied upon as much. The PP will be clicking on all cylinders.
Gagner will have a solid year = 65ish points. With 2 world class wingers, he's bound to have a good season. (top 4 wingers in EDM are Hall Eberle Hemsky Yakupov) Pick 2 and put them with Gagner - 65 points is a safe bet.

Lowe in Oil 12-28-2012 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nitz (Post 56850157)
Disagree. I believe that Gagner is easily a 2nd line centre. He's a solid, loyal soldier who works HARD. I don't understand HF's hatred of him. He's a 2nd line centre on most teams, minus the obvious ones like Vancouver and San Jose.

And Pittsburgh

Halpysback* 12-28-2012 04:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nitz (Post 56850157)
Disagree. I believe that Gagner is easily a 2nd line centre. He's a solid, loyal soldier who works HARD. I don't understand HF's hatred of him. He's a 2nd line centre on most teams, minus the obvious ones like Vancouver and San Jose.

Pretty much every team that has a Gagner level 2nd line center is either trying to upgrade that center or expecting them to develop and improve significantly.

45 point players who aren't big, fast, physical or great defensively don't have a lot of value. He's basically a placeholder for a real 2C. How much would you pay for a placeholder?

Just off the top of my head, the following teams have a clearly better 2C than Gagner

Pittsburgh
Philly
New Jersey
Carolina
Tampa
Boston
LA
San Jose
Vancouver
Washington
Colorado
Dallas
Detroit
St. Louis
Nashville


And the following have 2Cs who are better but not a lot better

NYI
NYR
Toronto (arguable with Bozak but Bozak brings more defensively and is faster)
Montreal
Phoenix
Ottawa (close but Turris has better speed, wrist shot and defensive acumen)
Anaheim (Koivu is declining)
Columbus (Anisimov/Johansen are at his level but Anisimov brings more and Johansen has much more potential)

Only teams where he's a clear cut top 2 C would be

Florida
Minnesota (hoping Granlund becomes elite)
Winnipeg (hoping Schiefele/Burmistrov become elite)
Calgary (horrible center situation Gagner doesn't come close to fixing)
Chicago (Bolland is better but a 3C fixture, only team I can think of who'd actually pay for him).

Oates2Neely 12-28-2012 05:45 AM

Gagner is an average centerman,, perhaps if he can learn to play better in his own zone he can become a reliable 3rd line center some day. As if now,, he's not a top 6 center, and he doesn't have enough intangibles to anchor a 3rd line pivot spot (not on a team with intentions of making noise in the playoffs)

internetdotcom 12-28-2012 08:22 AM

Value of the OP's package, i.e. short-term UFA rights to a perenially injured D and RFA rights (assuming he's not UFA in a new CBA) a soft C that is not in a good team's top 6, and cant handle bottom 6? I think I may have a used Tic Tac in my couch cushions. Deal?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DuckEatinShark (Post 56823731)
Gagner's value right now is similar to Turris' value when he got traded to Ottawa, which was a good D-prospect (Rundblad) and a 2nd. Gagner should get something similar to that if he got traded.

Whitney doesn't have much value as he is UFA. He might get you a 4th if he got traded early. Teams looking for a #3 type defenseman might give you a 3rd if they feel they can sign him.

In response to ^ , I agree with the below. Rundblad was one of the hottest prospects in the league at the time he was traded, and the 2nd was not exactly a low one. No way Gagner gets that if traded, because on any team where he is realistically one of their top 2 centers is not a good enough team that could afford to trade away that level of prospect and what would be a high 2nd, especially not in such a deep draft.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 96 (Post 56832743)
I don't think Gagner has the value Turris did. Turris had a much higher potential. Gagner is what he is. He's not good enough to be a top 6 player, and he's not big or responsible enough to play 3rd line.


Descendent* 12-28-2012 07:51 PM

Luke Adam and Christian Erhoff

victor 12-28-2012 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halpysback (Post 56855565)
Pretty much every team that has a Gagner level 2nd line center is either trying to upgrade that center or expecting them to develop and improve significantly.

45 point players who aren't big, fast, physical or great defensively don't have a lot of value. He's basically a placeholder for a real 2C. How much would you pay for a placeholder?

Just off the top of my head, the following teams have a clearly better 2C than Gagner

Pittsburgh
Philly
New Jersey
Carolina
Tampa
Boston
LA
San Jose
Vancouver
Washington
Colorado
Dallas
Detroit
St. Louis
Nashville


And the following have 2Cs who are better but not a lot better

NYI
NYR
Toronto (arguable with Bozak but Bozak brings more defensively and is faster)
Montreal
Phoenix
Ottawa (close but Turris has better speed, wrist shot and defensive acumen)
Anaheim (Koivu is declining)
Columbus (Anisimov/Johansen are at his level but Anisimov brings more and Johansen has much more potential)

Only teams where he's a clear cut top 2 C would be

Florida
Minnesota (hoping Granlund becomes elite)
Winnipeg (hoping Schiefele/Burmistrov become elite)
Calgary (horrible center situation Gagner doesn't come close to fixing)
Chicago (Bolland is better but a 3C fixture, only team I can think of who'd actually pay for him).

Your post would be better if you posted the player, and their cap hit.

Personally, I can see it for some teams, but others seem like a reach. That, combined with cap hit, makes a big difference.

mstad101 12-28-2012 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by victor (Post 56883327)
Your post would be better if you posted the player, and their cap hit.

Personally, I can see it for some teams, but others seem like a reach. That, combined with cap hit, makes a big difference.

You could argue the points you make for the middle group sure. But the Clear Cut group takes it no matter what you throw in as value pointers.

Gagner is like the Morrison to the Oilers, like the WCE days in Vancouver. He's a good soldier who will play his little heart out, but when everything is said and done he just isn't on the same level as his teammates when it comes to skill level.
His value comes to teams who need better scoring from their 2nd pivot spot like Chicago, but still have the depth to cover Gagner on the defensive side, making his job strictly scoring.

Though Whitney's value could be anything, it would probably be in the best interest of the Oil to hold onto him until they have someone ready to step in and completely take his spot. Offering Ryan 4 million per for 2 years gives them flexibility long term but allows each of the young prospects a chance to develop properly. Grabbing an extra 3rd or 4th round pick is pointless.

victor 12-28-2012 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mstad101 (Post 56884553)
You could argue the points you make for the middle group sure. But the Clear Cut group takes it no matter what you throw in as value pointers.

Gagner is like the Morrison to the Oilers, like the WCE days in Vancouver. He's a good soldier who will play his little heart out, but when everything is said and done he just isn't on the same level as his teammates when it comes to skill level.
His value comes to teams who need better scoring from their 2nd pivot spot like Chicago, but still have the depth to cover Gagner on the defensive side, making his job strictly scoring.

Is Gagner better than his likely linemates? Hemsky and Yakupov, I'd say not, although that's not to say he's not a 2nd liner.

Personally, I think that Gagner is under-rated on HF, simply because he's played on such a poor team for such a long time. Now, when Edmonton finally has players that are better than him, he's viewed as a less than optimal 2nd liner. Edmonton should play him for a year between Yakupov and Hemsky, with Eberle, Hall, and Hopkins playing against the leagues best, and see what they have before considering moving him.

Next year, we'll likely be talking about soft minutes and strong linemates when it comes to Gagner, which fits with your assertion about Morrison. Personally, I think he can be more than that, and can't see why a team would move him (or Morrison, for that matter) at 23.


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