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-   -   Proposal: Pens and Leafs (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1312291)

penguins2946* 12-27-2012 11:27 AM

Pens and Leafs
 
Leafs trade:
Kessel
Reimer
Gardiner

Pens trade:
Fleury
Morrow
Letang

This deal obviously isn't finalized, so debate which should add more.

Liferleafer 12-27-2012 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by penguins2946 (Post 56833279)
Leafs trade:
Kessel
Reimer
Gardiner

Pens trade:
Fleury
Morrow
Letang

This deal obviously isn't finalized, so debate which should add more.

How about instead of debating....i just say no thanks.

jayball75 12-27-2012 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by penguins2946 (Post 56833279)
Leafs trade:
Kessel
Reimer
Gardiner

Pens trade:
Fleury
Morrow
Letang

This deal obviously isn't finalized, so debate which should add more.

Id say your going to take some heat for what pit is giving up.

Phion Keneuf 12-27-2012 11:35 AM

Leafs say no. We would have no offense up front

mcphllp 12-27-2012 11:37 AM

id probably do it, losing kessel is tough though, hes one of the top wingers in the game. but getting maf and letang make up for it

penguins2946* 12-27-2012 11:38 AM

Pens fans are gonna be PISSED that I included Letang, but Gardiner will become almost as good, if not as good, as Letang in the long run.

Fearless Leaf* 12-27-2012 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by penguins2946 (Post 56833601)
Pens fans are gonna be PISSED that I included Letang, but Gardiner will become almost as good, if not as good, as Letang in the long run.

:laugh::laugh: U really think so? I don't and I am a Leafs fan.

in all seriousness, I would do this as a Leafs fan, Letang is arguably the best player in the deal, MAF is much proven and better than Reimer and on top of that, he is a legit #1 G, and getting a prospect like Morrow who safely looks like he could be a top 4 d-man at worst is more than satisfying.

I think we would clearly win this deal, though not by AINEC.

Sidney the Kidney 12-27-2012 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by penguins2946 (Post 56833601)
Pens fans are gonna be PISSED that I included Letang, but Gardiner will become almost as good, if not as good, as Letang in the long run.

First off, I don't agree that Gardiner will become as good as Letang. Second, *if* he hypothetically does, why would the Leafs deal him AND Kessel?

I don't like the proposal mainly because I don't want to give up Letang just to find a top six winger (there are ways to do that without trading away our best defenseman), and because trading away Fleury for Reimer does nothing for our goaltending situation.

In effect, the proposal strengthens the Pens' forwards, but weakens the defense and goalie position.

Badger Mayhew* 12-27-2012 11:49 AM

No from the Leafs.

Changing Letang to Neal would get it done, but I'm not sure how the Pens feel about it.

Prairie Habs 12-27-2012 11:52 AM

Kudos on giving up good players from your own team but I doubt Toronto would do it. Value-wise it boils down to:

Letang for Kessel
MAF for Gardiner
Morrow for Reimer

And I wouldn't say the value is that far off. It doesn't fill Toronto's biggest need though (1C) and it actually opens another huge whole on the first line so that cancels out the upgrades they made at D and goalie.

penguins2946* 12-27-2012 11:53 AM

This is how I broke down this deal. Pens would let Vokoun be the starter for 2 years, since he is still capable, and while he is the starter, he would mentor/help Reimer. Kessel is self-explanatory, and Gardiner will end up being a very good top-pair D. So essentially the Pens get a young starting goalie (he is capable), perhaps the best winger in the league right now and a future star on the back end. Leafs get a fantastic D, a good D prospect and a proven starter. Sorry if this offends, but I don't see an issue with that deal. If you want a long-term star for Sid, you will have to pay up.

Sidney the Kidney 12-27-2012 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by penguins2946 (Post 56834013)
This is how I broke down this deal. Pens would let Vokoun be the starter for 2 years, since he is still capable, and while he is the starter, he would mentor/help Reimer. Kessel is self-explanatory, and Gardiner will end up being a very good top-pair D. So essentially the Pens get a young starting goalie (he is capable), perhaps the best winger in the league right now and a future star on the back end. Leafs get a fantastic D, a good D prospect and a proven starter. Sorry if this offends, but I don't see an issue with that deal. If you want a long-term star for Sid, you will have to pay up.

Not by giving up the best defenseman on the roster. There are other ways to fill a need without creating another hole in doing so.

James Neal didn't cost the Pens the best defenseman on the roster. When the Hossa deal was made, the best defenseman on the roster didn't go the other way. Adding Chris Kunitz didn't cost the Pens the best defenseman on the roster.

You don't make one area of your team weaker (defense and goaltending) just to strengthen another (forward).

Prairie Habs 12-27-2012 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney (Post 56833807)
First off, I don't agree that Gardiner will become as good as Letang. Second, *if* he hypothetically does, why would the Leafs deal him AND Kessel?

I don't like the proposal mainly because I don't want to give up Letang just to find a top six winger (there are ways to do that without trading away our best defenseman), and because trading away Fleury for Reimer does nothing for our goaltending situation.

In effect, the proposal strengthens the Pens' forwards, but weakens the defense and goalie position.

It would make it cheaper so you could patch the whole in your top 4. I'm not necessarily advocating going with the cheap 1a/1b guys because I love that Montreal just has one awesome, expensive goalie but it would be something to think about if there was a move available for a top 4 D that would fit into your system.

Edit: Actually come to think of it don't you have lots of cap space anyway from not landing one of Parise/Suter and trading Michalek? If so then nevermind.

pooleboy 12-27-2012 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by penguins2946 (Post 56833279)
Leafs trade:
Kessel
Reimer
Gardiner

Pens trade:
Fleury
Morrow
Letang

This deal obviously isn't finalized, so debate which should add more.

leafs pass. easily. doesn't fill a need, we have gardiner and Rielly who both have puck moving abilities, if MAF was on the trade block i would offer something around gardiner but no way we give up or best offensive forward for what we have a surplus of

Sidney the Kidney 12-27-2012 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prairie Habs (Post 56834131)
It would make it cheaper so you could patch the whole in your top 4. I'm not necessarily advocating going with the cheap 1a/1b guys because I love that Montreal just has one awesome, expensive goalie but it would be something to think about if there was a move available for a top 4 D that would fit into your system.

Edit: Actually come to think of it don't you have lots of cap space anyway from not landing one of Parise/Suter and trading Michalek? If so then nevermind.

But it's making the goalie position weaker. If the Pens ever do decide to part ways with Fleury, it will be to *upgrade* the position, not downgrade to someone like Reimer just to save a couple of million.

The whole point in making trades is to improve a weakness without creating a new one. For instance, adding James Neal for Alex Goligoski was a great move because it filled a hole (forward scoring) without creating one elsewhere (Goligoski was about 5th on the depth chart on defense at the time of the trade). If instead the deal was Neal for Letang, I doubt Shero would have pulled the trigger because he'd be strengthening one position (forward) but weakening another (losing the top defenseman on the team).

I'm not against dealing Fleury. I'm one of those that's annoyed with his recent playoff meltdowns. But at the same time, I want them to UPGRADE on Fleury, not bring in a guy who has even more question marks and just cross my fingers that it somehow works.

MovesLikeJagr68 12-27-2012 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by penguins2946 (Post 56834013)
This is how I broke down this deal. Pens would let Vokoun be the starter for 2 years, since he is still capable, and while he is the starter, he would mentor/help Reimer. Kessel is self-explanatory, and Gardiner will end up being a very good top-pair D. So essentially the Pens get a young starting goalie (he is capable), perhaps the best winger in the league right now and a future star on the back end. Leafs get a fantastic D, a good D prospect and a proven starter. Sorry if this offends, but I don't see an issue with that deal. If you want a long-term star for Sid, you will have to pay up.

I hate to do this to Leaf players since they don't get much love on these boards, but you're kind of overrating these guys. Reimer may be a capable starter, but he won't end up being nearly as good as Fleury, or a guy I would want to backstop a championship team. Kessel is not THE best winger in the league, let's be real. Also he does not`have that same aggressive physical style that Bylsma seems to look for in his wingers. Gardiner will be a good D-man, but he won't be at Letang's level, so why downgrade? Plus Letang is only 3 years older so I really don't get that trade off at all.

penguins2946* 12-27-2012 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MovesLikeJagr68 (Post 56834317)
I hate to do this to Leaf players since they don't get much love on these boards, but you're kind of overrating these guys. Reimer may be a capable starter, but he won't end up being nearly as good as Fleury, or a guy I would want to backstop a championship team. Kessel is not THE best winger in the league, let's be real. Also he does not`have that same aggressive physical style that Bylsma seems to look for in his wingers. Gardiner will be a good D-man, but he won't be at Letang's level, so why downgrade? Plus Letang is only 3 years older so I really don't get that trade off at all.

A. Kessel scored nearly 40 goals and 80 points without a good center. Neal only does that with Malkin. Kessel is one of the best in the game.

B. On Reimer never being as good as Fleury
Reimer's stats in 2011: 2.60 GAA, .921 Save %
Fleury's best ever: 2.32 GAA, 0.918 Save %

Reimer did that in his rookie season. He then got a concussion last year which screwed him up badly. And he was on a weaker team as well. Point is, Reimer has already been as good as Fleury in his rookie year, there's no reason to think he can't again.

C. Letang isn't this consistent Norris-candidate that people think he is. He is a very good number-1 D, which Gardiner will probably become.

You are severely overrating the Pens players, and I'm a Pens fan.

hlaverty06 12-27-2012 12:18 PM

So the leafs offense will be nonexistent and the pens D will be non existent... Makes sense

Black Label 12-27-2012 12:19 PM

Just because you put a bunch of big name players into a trade doesn't mean it fills needs for both teams. The Leafs need a center, this proposal does not help that. The Penguins need help on defense, trading away the best defenseman on the team along with the best defensive prospect does nothing to remedy the situation. Absolutely moronic proposal that does nothing to help either team.

MovesLikeJagr68 12-27-2012 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by penguins2946 (Post 56834543)
A. Kessel scored nearly 40 goals and 80 points without a good center. Neal only does that with Malkin. Kessel is one of the best in the game.

I never compared him to Neal, I was just saying that he is not THE best winger in the league.

Quote:

B. On Reimer never being as good as Fleury
Reimer's stats in 2011: 2.60 GAA, .921 Save %
Fleury's best ever: 2.32 GAA, 0.918 Save %

Reimer did that in his rookie season. He then got a concussion last year which screwed him up badly. And he was on a weaker team as well. Point is, Reimer has already been as good as Fleury in his rookie year, there's no reason to think he can't again.
I'm not even going to bother with this one.

Quote:

C. Letang isn't this consistent Norris-candidate that people think he is. He is a very good number-1 D, which Gardiner will probably become
Letang is a #1 now. Why would they trade that away for a guy who MAY one day be a #1? Just doesn't make any sense...

penguins2946* 12-27-2012 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Label (Post 56834639)
Just because you put a bunch of big name players into a trade doesn't mean it fills needs for both teams. The Leafs need a center, this proposal does not help that. The Penguins need help on defense, trading away the best defenseman on the team along with the best defensive prospect does nothing to remedy the situation. Absolutely moronic proposal that does nothing to help either team.

The issue with your statement is that while the Pens D isn't the best, it is serviceable. Also, we probably have the best collection of D prospects right now, so why would we trade for D help when we know in 2-3 years we will be the best in the league? And the Leaf's need for a goalie I think is more important than a 1C, they could sign Getzlaf next summer, but they can't get someone like Fleury.

penguins2946* 12-27-2012 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MovesLikeJagr68 (Post 56834815)
I never compared him to Neal, I was just saying that he is not THE best winger in the league.

I never said you compared him to Neal, I was doing that comparison because everyone thinks Neal is so good right now.

Quote:

I'm not even going to bother with this one.
Oh no, I used facts and statistics, I guess that means I'm wrong. At least defend Fleury a little bit. You saying "I'm not even going to bother with this one" just shows that you can't refute it.

Quote:

Letang is a #1 now. Why would they trade that away for a guy who MAY one day be a #1? Just doesn't make any sense...
I would put Gardiner as a number 2 or 3 D right now. Yeah, it would probably hurt in the short run, but in the long run, it would save us a bunch of money that we would have spent on Letang and would help us when the likes of Dumoulin/Maatta/Despres get up here. Our D right now isn't the best, even with Letang. I'd rather have a younger D corpse in the future than have Letang right now, mainly because we won't be winning the cup now, but we may in a few years.

Bourne Endeavor 12-27-2012 12:42 PM

Why does either team do this?

Toronto would have virtually nonexistent offense and adhere to a style Fleury is absolutely horrible at; run 'n' gun. While Fleury is undoubtedly better than Reimer, the upgrade is a bit underwhelming overall once you factor what is lost. Letang cannot offset the subtraction of both Kessel and Gardiner.

On Pittsburgh side, Gardiner is in every way inferior to Letang and beyond him, the Pen's defense is not particularly stellar. A downgrade in goal would equate to Pittsburgh being a superior variation of what Toronto was last year; all gun and no barrel. While they might score in droves, they would allow a disgusting amount of goals themselves and likely end up shredded by better teams.

Not a good trade for either team.

MovesLikeJagr68 12-27-2012 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by penguins2946 (Post 56834951)
Oh no, I used facts and statistics, I guess that means I'm wrong. At least defend Fleury a little bit. You saying "I'm not even going to bother with this one" just shows that you can't refute it.

I'm not bothering with this because I'm not wasting my time arguing online with someone who's trying to say Reimer is better than an All-Star goalie who was a huge reason his team has been to 2 SC Finals and 1 Cup win just because he (along with his defence) had a terrible playoff series.

penguins2946* 12-27-2012 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MovesLikeJagr68 (Post 56835491)
I'm not bothering with this because I'm not wasting my time arguing online with someone who's trying to say Reimer is better than an All-Star goalie who has a huge reason his team has been to 2 SC Finals and 1 Cup win just because he (along with his defence) had a terrible playoff series.

No where did I say Reimer was a better goalie, nor did I say the reason was because of the playoffs. All I said was that Reimer is just about as good as Fleury, and will continue to get better. And Fleury was an All-Star once, that doesn't qualify as an all-star goalie. And didn't he get lit up in that game anyway, not that it matters? I also am fully aware that Fleury was a huge part in those cup runs. The issue is that none of what you said derails any from Reimer's ability. Reimer will be a very capable starter in the NHL, and has already had a season better than any of Fleury's.


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