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-   -   F Chris Kreider (2009, 19th overall, NY Rangers) II -"What's the big deal," you ask? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1312451)

LatvianTwist 12-27-2012 09:12 PM

F Chris Kreider (2009, 19th overall, NY Rangers) II -"What's the big deal," you ask?
 
Why is it that so many people talk about him like an elite level prospect? His stats anywhere aren't exactly impressive, especially this year in the AHL. I've seen many of you guys point to his playoff performance as to a reason why he's an elite prospect, and yet he didn't even put up half a point per game. He was also a -4 which seems very low for a team that had as much success as New York, and the 5-6 games I did catch I barely noticed him.

I just don't get the hype. Reilly Smith, from the Stars, has not only put up just as impressive stats in college (in a comparable league), and is tearing up the AHL right now with 10 goals in the last 12 games (much more impressive than Kreider's season so far), and yet you'd be hard pressed to find top 100 prospect lists including R. Smith. His NHL showing wasn't very impressive, but we had some very questionable coaching decisions that messed up his stats and NHL chances.

So could someone explain to me what makes him so special?

[MOD] Original Thread: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=594413

Clowes Line 12-27-2012 09:16 PM

Points don't make a prospect good or bad. He has all the tools to succeed in the NHL. You say his playoff stats aren't impressive, yet he set a record for most goals scored (5) by a rookie in the playoffs who never played a regular season game.

The Connecticut Whale as a team are ****ing disgusting this year. I'm not ready to write him off. Put him with Richards and/or Stepan with Nash or Gaborik on his opposite wing and let's see how poorly he performs.

LatvianTwist 12-27-2012 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Callys Chicken Parm (Post 56848007)
Points don't make a prospect good or bad. He has all the tools to succeed in the NHL. You say his playoff stats aren't impressive, yet he set a record for most goals scored (5) by a rookie in the playoffs who never played a regular season game.

The Connecticut Whale as a team are ****ing disgusting this year. I'm not ready to write him off. Put him with Richards and/or Stepan with Nash or Gaborik on his wing and let's see how poorly he performs.

That seems like kind of a pointless record, but okay. I'm not seeing those tools when I watch him either, but maybe I'm just missing it.

I don't think it'd be hard for anyone to put up ~40 points with those guys. Doesn't take a ton of talent to do that.

Clowes Line 12-27-2012 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LatvianTwist (Post 56848067)
That seems like kind of a pointless record, but okay. I'm not seeing those tools when I watch him either, but maybe I'm just missing it.

I don't think it'd be hard for anyone to put up ~40 points with those guys. Doesn't take a ton of talent to do that.

You said his stats weren't impressive at all and when I bring up that he came straight out of college into the NHL playoffs and scored 5 goals (setting a record for rookies with no prior NHL experience) in 18 games, you say that's pointless. I give up and I'm only one post in with you.

LatvianTwist 12-27-2012 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Callys Chicken Parm (Post 56848127)
You said his stats weren't impressive at all and when I bring up that he came straight out of college into the NHL playoffs and scored 5 goals (setting a record for rookies with no prior NHL experience) in 18 games, you say that's a pointless. I give up and I'm only one post in with you.

I'm not trying to discount it, but that's not exactly a situation many players get put into. I'm sure if it happened more often, it'd be a much higher total to break. In fact, Subban and Kreider are the only two prospects to be in that kind of situation that I can think of, but I might be missing some guys.

Clowes Line 12-27-2012 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LatvianTwist (Post 56848193)
I'm not trying to discount it, but that's not exactly a situation many players get put into. I'm sure if it happened more often, it'd be a much higher total to break. In fact, Subban and Kreider are the only two prospects to be in that kind of situation that I can think of, but I might be missing some guys.

And there's a reason why they are the only two you can think of. It doesn't happen often because most players are not worthy of the task. Tony Amonte is another one. He was pretty good, right?

He, along with Hagelin, is one of the fastest players in the league, and he's 6'3 230 lbs. He also has a wicked shot and is very physical. The only thing he is lacking in is hockey sense. He's not always making smart plays, but that can be taught. He has every tool that a hockey player could dream of having.

broadwayblue 12-27-2012 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LatvianTwist (Post 56847911)
So could someone explain to me what makes him so special?

If you had watched some of the Rangers playoff games you would have seen why we think he has excellent potential.

LatvianTwist 12-27-2012 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Callys Chicken Parm (Post 56848277)
And there's a reason why they are the only two you can think of. It doesn't happen often because most players are not worthy of the task. Tony Amonte is another one. He was pretty good, right?

No, because most players who are good enough to do so jump into the NHL in the regular season instead of straight into the playoffs.

Why did he not see any regular season time? R. Smith made the jump this year as well, but he managed to get 3 games in before the playoffs (we obviously didn't make them, but still).

LatvianTwist 12-27-2012 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broadwayblue (Post 56848335)
If you had watched some of the Rangers playoff games you would have seen why we think he has excellent potential.

I actually did and was never impressed. Maybe I just watched the wrong games or something, but he never stood out. He did look NHL ready, but I wasn't wow'ed like I have been by other top 20 prospects in brief NHL stints (Baertschi, Subban in the playoffs, etc.).

Clowes Line 12-27-2012 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LatvianTwist (Post 56848343)
No, because most players who are good enough to do so jump into the NHL in the regular season instead of straight into the playoffs.

Why did he not see any regular season time? R. Smith made the jump this year as well, but he managed to get 3 games in before the playoffs (we obviously didn't make them, but still).

He didn't see regular season time because he was busy winning a National Championship at BC. Holy **** dude, at least do some research before making an argument. He joined the Rangers about two days after winning the title, otherwise known as the first round of the playoffs against Ottawa.

caps4cup 12-27-2012 09:32 PM

Kreider is all speed. Nothing else. He's like Viktor Stalberg lite.

Clowes Line 12-27-2012 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caps4cup (Post 56848431)
Kreider is all speed. Nothing else. He's like Viktor Stalberg lite.

LOL. And you are making this argument based off of what, if I may ask?

LatvianTwist 12-27-2012 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Callys Chicken Parm (Post 56848407)
He didn't see regular season time because he was busy winning a National Championship at BC. Holy **** dude, at least do some research before making an argument. He joined the Rangers about two days after winning the title, otherwise known as the first round of the playoffs against Ottawa.

So you complain to me about using stats (which I did look up before posting this thread), and then tell me to do some research...?

Sorry I don't follow college hockey religiously.

Clowes Line 12-27-2012 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LatvianTwist (Post 56848509)
So you complain to me about using stats (which I did look up before posting this thread), and then tell me to do some research...?

Sorry I don't follow college hockey religiously.

I don't follow it religiously either. You made the argument that he should've joined them during the regular season. I figured people who post on a hockey message board would know that NCAA hockey goes into April. There's a reason why he joined them as late as he did. Do you not think the Rangers would've preferred he got some seasoning before the playoffs started?

broadwayblue 12-27-2012 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LatvianTwist (Post 56848375)
I actually did and was never impressed. Maybe I just watched the wrong games or something, but he never stood out. He did look NHL ready, but I wasn't wow'ed like I have been by other top 20 prospects in brief NHL stints (Baertschi, Subban in the playoffs, etc.).

Guess you can head back to where you came from then. For most of us Rangers fans we saw glimpses of what we hope will be a regular occurrence for years to come. Not trying to be a jerk, but Kreider is probably the most exciting prospect we've had in a decade (Cherepanov notwithstanding RIP). He's got size and speed that are simply elite...if he can put it all together he'll be a good one.

Jaromir Jagr 12-27-2012 09:38 PM

You know what, for me it comes down to this:

Watching him play was exciting. He knew where to be. He generated offense at a level that nearly everyone on our team wasn't (including the veterans). His speed was uncanny. He even took the body and played some defense.

Sometimes stats take a backseat to actual playing. There are many instances where someones stats do not tell the story, whether it be someone who underachieved or someone who overachieved.

Maybe Kreider isn't known around the league. Maybe other NHL fans don't know him or see the hype. Maybe they do. But guess what? I don't care. Because I don't care about their prospects either and probably wouldn't believe them either when they say they have one that's the "real deal". I'm not a prospect nerd. I don't research what system players are doing and vaguely hear about it enough to wonder how it could turn out.

Bottom line is this: when he played for this team in the playoffs, he pretty much outplayed all of this team on offense except maybe Richards, and even that was close. We have a good Rangers team but our offense is nothing to write home about. Also, we rarely ever developed good prospects behind the last few years - so we are generally excited about our younger players.

LatvianTwist 12-27-2012 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Callys Chicken Parm (Post 56848563)
I don't follow it religiously either. You made the argument that he should've joined them during the regular season. There's a reason why he joined them as late as he did. Do you not think the Rangers would've preferred he got some seasoning before the playoffs started?

I don't believe I ever said he should have, simply that his team's success set him up for that, nothing he did personally (besides choosing to go to that school).

I'm simply saying its a very unique situation, and it doesn't seem all that impressive of a record. You said it yourself, there are only two players to have gone through it in the past 4-5 years, and you've got to go all the way back to Amonte to find another.

Clowes Line 12-27-2012 09:41 PM

Oh and this is a fact.

Jerry York at BC plays his players based on Seniority. Kreider took a back seat during his freshman and sophomore years on a very talented BC hockey team. Limited ice time = limited production.

LatvianTwist 12-27-2012 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broadwayblue (Post 56848573)
Guess you can head back to where you came from then. For most of us Rangers fans we saw glimpses of what we hope will be a regular occurrence for years to come. Not trying to be a jerk, but Kreider is probably the most exciting prospect we've had in a decade (Cherepanov notwithstanding RIP). He's got size and speed that are simply elite...if he can put it all together he'll be a good one.

Maybe it was just the system then, as I wasn't impressed.

Clowes Line 12-27-2012 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LatvianTwist (Post 56848611)
I don't believe I ever said he should have, simply that his team's success set him up for that, nothing he did personally (besides choosing to go to that school).

I'm simply saying its a very unique situation, and it doesn't seem all that impressive of a record. You said it yourself, there are only two players to have gone through it in the past 4-5 years, and you've got to go all the way back to Amonte to find another.

He actually went back to BC because earning a degree was very important to him and his family. He had already won a National Championship his Freshman year.

Short and simple: The Rangers burned a year off of his ELC for him to join them for 18 games. Why? I'll let you debate that with yourself.

LatvianTwist 12-27-2012 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Callys Chicken Parm (Post 56848647)
Oh and this is a fact.

Jerry York at BC plays his players based on Seniority. Kreider took a back seat during his freshman and sophomore years on a very talented BC hockey team. Limited ice time = limited production.

That's not a unique problem. R. Smith and Chiasson both went through the same thing, that's actually pretty common in college.

Clowes Line 12-27-2012 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LatvianTwist (Post 56848663)
Maybe it was just the system then, as I wasn't impressed.

We dump and chase. Our team doesn't score goals. The fact that he accounted for 5 goals on a goal hungry team is astonishing.

broadwayblue 12-27-2012 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Callys Chicken Parm (Post 56848755)

Short and simple: The Rangers burned a year off of his ELC for him to join them for 18 games. Why? I'll let you debate that with yourself.

/thread.

LatvianTwist 12-27-2012 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Callys Chicken Parm (Post 56848755)
He actually went back to BC because earning a degree was very important to him and his family. He had already won a National Championship his Freshman year.

Short and simple: The Rangers burned a year off of his ELC for him to join them for 18 games. Why? I'll let you debate that with yourself.

That's respectable, and a good show of heart and leadership, but I don't really see what you're trying to tell me.

The Stars burned a year off of R. Smith's ELC for 3 games (2 of which he logged less than 5 minutes of TOI in. I wonder why, as well.

HatTrick Swayze 12-27-2012 09:47 PM

Kreider has legititimate work to do but I am getting pretty sick of the "hurr durr stats" argument.

He is never going to carry the mail for an offense. He is an opportunistic player. What he is not is player like Kris Newbury (for example), who is capable of completely running the show at the AHL level. However, Newbury also doesnt have enough skill or tools to transfer that ability to the NHL. I highly doubt Kreider will ever be able to completely carry the load like a top "AHL star" but what he does have are projectable abilities that indicate he could be an NHL scorer with the right kind of linemates and opportunities.

The "linemate excuse" may be overplayed a bit but it also has some merit. Kreider needs to work on his reads and positioning, but if he gets the puck on his stick there is no stopping him. The goals he is scoring in the AHL could beat any NHL netminder.


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