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-   -   Lockout VI:ve la Revolution! (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1312673)

Hank Chinaski 12-28-2012 09:37 AM

Lockout VI:ve la Revolution!
 
Continue here.

Link to previous thread.

Coldplay 12-28-2012 09:41 AM

Please let this be the last one.

du5566* 12-28-2012 09:43 AM

Can someone please explain to me how the NHL's long term success is not in the best interest of the PA and should not be taken into account by Fehr and the players in regards to a deal?

du5566* 12-28-2012 09:52 AM

Bottom line Fehr is going to kill this deal. What he did a month ago by [mod: going] to the media and his players saying they were close to a deal when he knew that the owners offer was a take it or leave it offer and any counter offer would piss off the owners was disingenuous at best.

And focus all you want on the years of contract length and CBA length but the NHLPA's last counter offer was NOT a 50/50 split on revenue and if Fehr and the players think they are going to get more than a 50/50 split then a deal will NEVER get done.

madhi19 12-28-2012 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coldplay (Post 56864499)
Please let this be the last one.

We can only hope but not likely the forum will go nuts if they cut a deal.

Dado 12-28-2012 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by du5566 (Post 56864581)
Can someone please explain to me how the NHL's long term success is not in the best interest of the PA and should not be taken into account by Fehr and the players in regards to a deal?

It is, and it has been.

Dado 12-28-2012 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by du5566 (Post 56864815)
...

Given the owners apparently made another offer afterwards indicates Fehr was absolutely correct in not treating as a "take it or leave it" offer.

No lying going on at all...

Dado 12-28-2012 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by du5566 (Post 56865625)
The owners did not make another offer after Fehr went to the media and said they were close. Unless you are talking about this offer today?

So they didn't offer any more offers except for the ones they offered?

:)

Nice.

(And it's not today, it's yesterday).

ItsAllPartOfThePlan 12-28-2012 11:22 AM

Well, Fehr was right in saying they could get more, but is that worth it to the amount they have lost so far?

madhi19 12-28-2012 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ItsAllPartOfThePlan (Post 56868229)
Well, Fehr was right in saying they could get more, but is that worth it to the amount they have lost so far?

It worth it if the BOG think twice before going the lockout route next time.

Riptide 12-28-2012 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJDevs26
No, his job is working in the best interests of the PA, not the best interests of the NHL.

However if he ruins the NHL in the process, then that only hurts the players. He needs to ensure that he's not biting the hand that feeds him (which we've seen all too often with unions).

For the NHLPA to flourish, the NHL itself needs to flourish.

pepty 12-28-2012 11:28 AM

http://www.ottawasun.com/2012/12/28/...-lockout-talks

This is second time Garrioch had had an article going on about how Bettman blinked.It seems that any move toward a negotiated settlement by the league is presented that way by him.

And this time he admits that his source has " close ties to the union " and you can be sure that is where he got his information regarding the owners insisting on a deal-just the usual PA spin which Garrioch threw up on his twitter because he has no real leads or reliable sources and was scooped by everyone including Eklund and needed some hits to his twitter account.

Conflicted Habs fan 12-28-2012 11:30 AM

Actually, sigh, this old pattern will rear its ugly head again. What will happen is Bettman will make a demand, the PA will agree, and then Bettman will state they're far apart and cancel the season, and everybody here will blame Fehr.

Jackpot 12-28-2012 11:30 AM

The only reason it's taken this long is the ongoing impression of egomaniacal individuals thinking there has to be "winner's" and "losers" after all this is said and done.

Instead they (meaning both sides) should have approached the issues with the intent of doing what was in the best interest of the game and it's fans... For that I blame the leadership on both sides, more so at Bettman considering the cycle he's been a part of during his tenure...

Riptide 12-28-2012 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madhi19 (Post 56868295)
It worth it if the BOG think twice before going the lockout route next time.

The BOG will go the lockout route if there's no CBA in place. If the players want to avoid a lockout, then they need to actually come to the table a lot sooner.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dado (Post 56865497)
Given the owners apparently made another offer afterwards indicates Fehr was absolutely correct in not treating as a "take it or leave it" offer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ItsAllPartOfThePlan (Post 56868229)
Well, Fehr was right in saying they could get more, but is that worth it to the amount they have lost so far?

So they gained 1 additional year in contract length for FAs, they gained 5% on variance, and they gained 1 compliance buyout (within the system).

It cost them 2 weeks (something like 250m?). Only the players can decide if that's worth it.

madhi19 12-28-2012 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riptide (Post 56868341)
However if he ruins the NHL in the process, then that only hurts the players. He needs to ensure that he's not biting the hand that feeds him (which we've seen all too often with unions).

For the NHLPA to flourish, the NHL itself needs to flourish.

It all a matter of perspective the PA argument should be. "Clean up your own mess before asking us to clean it for you." The NHL has way bigger problems than a 50/50 split could fix. And they should have fixed some of these problems years ago.

Riptide 12-28-2012 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madhi19 (Post 56868295)
It worth it if the BOG think twice before going the lockout route next time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by madhi19 (Post 56868579)
It all a matter of perspective the PA argument should be. "Clean up your own mess before asking us to clean it for you." The NHL has way bigger problems than a 50/50 split could fix. And they should have fixed some of these problems years ago.

I agree that the NHL has things they need to improve upon. But that doesn't mean a 50/50 and contract limits isn't needed. But that 200m+ that the NHL is willing to share, is actually a lot.

When we talked about increasing RS and all that... even splitting the gate 50/50 (with 50% going out to all 30 teams evenly), unless average ticket prices are over $350 (no real info here, as TMR data is next to useless), splitting the gate doesn't come close to re-distributing 200m after you take into account what teams contributed.

Boltsfan2029 12-28-2012 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pepty (Post 56868399)
http://www.ottawasun.com/2012/12/28/...-lockout-talks

This is second time Garrioch had had an article going on about how Bettman blinked.It seems that any move toward a negotiated settlement by the league is presented that way by him.

And this time he admits that his source has " close ties to the union " and you can be sure that is where he got his information regarding the owners insisting on a deal-just the usual PA spin which Garrioch threw up on his twitter because he has no real leads or reliable sources and was scooped by everyone including Eklund and needed some hits to his twitter account.

Of course. The PA's goal is to "WIN" at apparently any cost. All movement by the league will be characterized as such, especially now when the players have lost much more than they're going to gain. Someone in another forum said, the key to getting this deal done is to make the PA think they've won. I don't agree totally, but I think it will be necessary to give them an out to declare they've won because, if they don't, I don't see them ever agreeing to anything the league proposes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by madhi19 (Post 56868579)
It all a matter of perspective the PA argument should be. "Clean up your own mess before asking us to clean it for you." The NHL has way bigger problems than a 50/50 split could fix. And they should have fixed some of these problems years ago.

How could they have fixed the problems years ago? Seems to me that the only ways to fix those problems would fall under the purview of the CBA and couldn't be changed without negotiating with the PA.

thinkwild 12-28-2012 12:13 PM

I'd be careful getting hopes up again. This falls into Bettmans well worn pattern. Back channel through the EK guy to get everyones hopes up. And then hardball negotiate something the players wont want to accept attempting to shift back blame to Fehr. Bettman in the past tries to sow chaos and then hope through the crisis the other side comes up with desperate measures and solutions. I doubt he has it in him to actually negotiate a compromise with Fehr any more than the american politicians do over the fiscal cliff. The posturing appears too important.

However, at least it seems we have the NHL's final final final final offer. If only they gave this out last summer? But i guess you dont retain a top legal firm to make offers like that in the summer.

Make whole not war.

Riptide 12-28-2012 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boltsfan2029 (Post 56869603)
How could they have fixed the problems years ago? Seems to me that the only ways to fix those problems would fall under the purview of the CBA and couldn't be changed without negotiating with the PA.

There's no reason why RS needs to be in the CBA. It's something that's strictly between owners, and doesn't affect the players in any way.

Model62 12-28-2012 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madhi19 (Post 56868295)
It worth it if the BOG think twice before going the lockout route next time.

Yep. Gotta make 'em feel some pain so's they wake and realize they've got to negotiate and work with the PA, not hand down take it or leave it proposals (this CBA process; last year's League realignment proposal.)

cbcwpg 12-28-2012 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thinkwild (Post 56869659)
However, at least it seems we have the NHL's final final final final offer.

If this is the NHL's final final final final offer and the one they are willing to "die on the hill for", then we will not be having a season, because according to

Nick Kypreos
‏@RealKyper

Good sign #NHL owners aren't willing to burn season but latest offer not close 2 getting deal done. #NHLPA counter offer already in works.


a counter offer is in the works.

This process has never been a negotiation. The players knew from day 1 they are going to have to give up some stuff, the question only has been.. how much. So Fehr is convinced ( and has convinced the players ) that they are not going to see the NHL's best offer until 1 minute before the season gets cancelled, and then the players will accept because now they can say to themselves " we have given up the least we can". So the NHLPA is going to keep counter-offering until the last minute, no matter the offer from the NHL.

InjuredChoker 12-28-2012 12:31 PM

Fehr wants more. No way he accepts; so the players won't either.

pepty 12-28-2012 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madhi19 (Post 56868295)
It worth it if the BOG think twice before going the lockout route next time.

Quite right!Time for a good old fashioned strike instead, preferably just before the playoffs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cbcwpg (Post 56869907)
If this is the NHL's final final final final offer and the one they are willing to "die on the hill for", then we will not be having a season, because according to

Nick Kypreos
‏@RealKyper

Good sign #NHL owners aren't willing to burn season but latest offer not close 2 getting deal done. #NHLPA counter offer already in works.


a counter offer is in the works.

. So the NHLPA is going to keep counter-offering until the last minute, no matter the offer from the NHL.

I am sure one of Fehrs patented poison pill offers is in the works.

If he runs true to form , he will present something he knows is unacceptable to the League and then call a press conference to say how close they are. If he can do it at the very last second so that the NHL can bear the blame for the loss of the season that may be the victory he is hoping for.

ItsAllPartOfThePlan 12-28-2012 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cbcwpg (Post 56869907)

This process has never been a negotiation. The players knew from day 1 they are going to have to give up some stuff, the question only has been.. how much. So Fehr is convinced ( and has convinced the players ) that they are not going to see the NHL's best offer until 1 minute before the season gets cancelled, and then the players will accept because now they can say to themselves " we have given up the least we can". So the NHLPA is going to keep counter-offering until the last minute, no matter the offer from the NHL.

Sadly, I think you are right. However, if there is no season this year, then this could backfire and the PA are going to get screwed.


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