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-   -   Did the 2011 draft hurt us more than anything else? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1313997)

leugangen 12-31-2012 11:06 AM

Did the 2011 draft hurt us more than anything else?
 
A lot of people point to the Kessel trade when talking about the team's future, but I look at the 2011 draft and think about how much better our future could be if we had made a few different decisions.

Let's take a look:

We held picks 25 (Percy), 30 (Rakell), and 39 (Gibson). We traded 30 and 39 for 22 (Biggs).

So we ended up with:

Tyler Biggs

and gave up:

Richard Rakell
John Gibson

That is without considering these other players we could have taken:

Brandon Saad
Boone Jenner
Ty Rattie
Tomas Jurco


Hindsight is always 20/20. I still like Biggs and Percy, but I think this draft hurt us a lot more than people point to.

I am sad.

Duke Silver 12-31-2012 11:07 AM

I was okay with the Biggs pick, but not very happy with the Percy pick. Jenner was the one I wanted at 25, at the time.

Alas, you could play "what could have been" with every single draft and come out sad. There's no sense dwelling on it, as it doesn't change anything.

81 12-31-2012 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duke Silver (Post 56962739)
I was okay with the Biggs pick, but not very happy with the Percy pick. Jenner was the one I wanted at 25, at the time.

Alas, you could play "what could have been" with every single draft and come out sad. There's no sense dwelling on it, as it doesn't change anything.

I wanted Phillips at the time.

ErnieLeafs 12-31-2012 11:10 AM

I wanted Jurco or Rattie with the 25th pick.

Neither team holding those players would trade either of them for Percy straight up, and I wouldn't blame them.

Bomber0104 12-31-2012 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leugangen (Post 56962705)
A lot of people point to the Kessel trade when talking about the team's future, but I look at the 2011 draft and think about how much better our future could be if we had made a few different decisions.

Let's take a look:

We held picks 25 (Percy), 30 (Rakell), and 39 (Gibson). We traded 30 and 39 for 22 (Biggs).

So we ended up with:

Tyler Biggs

and gave up:

Richard Rakell
John Gibson

That is without considering these other players we could have taken:

Brandon Saad
Boone Jenner
Ty Rattie
Tomas Jurco


Hindsight is always 20/20. I still like Biggs and Percy, but I think this draft hurt us a lot more than people point to.

I am sad.

Terrible picks and terrible idea to trade up to get Tyler Biggs.

Rare Jewel 12-31-2012 11:10 AM

right on schedule...

Bomber0104 12-31-2012 11:13 AM

Me and my friend (who is smart about hockeY) are discussing this right now and we agreed that Tyler Biggs is not worth two very valuable picks since you can just acquire fourth line players in free agency for peanuts.

7even 12-31-2012 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bomber0104 (Post 56962941)
Me and my friend are discussing this right now and we agreed that Tyler Biggs is not worth two very valuable picks since you can just acquire fourth line players in free agency for peanuts.

Exactly. Tyler Biggs is a swell chap I'm sure, but not very good value for an early 20s first rounder.

Mess 12-31-2012 11:30 AM

Leafs drafting and amateur scouting record is spotty at best as draft history shows. I personally would have made different selections and utilization of the picks we had.

Biggs and Percy are alright prospects at present, but I believe better picks could have been made. IMO

Trading the #39th & #30 overall picks to move up 8 spots was a 2 - 1 opportunity loss where players drafted after Tyler Biggs have odds of being better NHL players in time and you would have had 2 chances of hitting as opposed to one.

Lets not forget Leafs were left picking at the end of the 1st round because they traded away their top 10 earned pick previously, but it will be the 2010 draft that will end up hurting the Leafs most in time.

TheNorthFace 12-31-2012 11:32 AM

I'm ok with the Biggs pick because players like Biggs are all but essential to having a winning team, and are pretty rare. We traded a valuable pick to move up to get him, which in hindsight appears to be a mistake. However you never know with prospects honestly. Maybe Rakell and Gibson never play a game in the NHL. Maybe Biggs doesn't either. Too early to tell.

My real problem is the picking of Percy at 25. That was a big jump and we didn't get great value using that pick at 25 to pick Percy. I think Percy is a good prospect, but probably should have been taken in the early-mid second where he was ranked mostly. I wanted Jenner personally, but there were a handful of good forward prospects taken after that pick such as Jenner, Danault, Phillips, Rattie, Saad, Jurco, and Ritchie that the Leafs probably should of looked at before Percy. Apparently they were very high on Percy though so we'll see how he pans out.

Phion Keneuf 12-31-2012 11:35 AM

I wanted Gibson, badly.

MapleLeafsFan4Ever 12-31-2012 11:36 AM

My personal opinion is let's judge the players Burke and the Maple Leafs picked or didn't pick until they start playing in the NHL. It's easy to say they should have picked this player but we are basing that off their stats right now in Junior Hockey, when the NHL is a very different game.

Joey Hoser 12-31-2012 11:37 AM

Yes, hindsight shows we arguably could have made better choices in the 20-40 range 2 drafts ago. How could you even expect it to be any different?

If you're going to complain, at least find something reasonable to complain about. There's lots to pick from.

Bomber0104 12-31-2012 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joey Hoser (Post 56963647)
Yes, hindsight shows we arguably could have made better choices in the 20-40 range 2 drafts ago. How could you even expect it to be any different?

If you're going to complain, at least find something reasonable to complain about. There's lots to pick from.

Hindsight?

Quote:

Originally Posted by dean youngblood82 (Post 34034983)
I hate this Biggs pick. Not a fan at all.

Toronto didn't need a bruising 3rd line winger, they needed a skilled player capable of playing in the top 6.

I makes me even more angry that Burke gave up a solid 2nd round pick (39th) to move up to get Biggs.

He should've sat tight and took the best player available or traded up to get a player like McNeil (big skilled center)

He passed over players like Puempel, Rattie, Phillips, Namestnikov and even Grimaldi who have good offensive futures for another 3rd liner who's compared to Colby Armstrong.

In the process he dealt the 2nd round pick where we could have selected Percy (not worth 25th), Ritchie, Saad, Rask, Mayfield, Catenacci, Jenner or any other player who fell to him.

Terrible, terrible, terrible first round for the Maple Leafs.

Now we have to wait until the 3rd round (86th) to pick.

Stupid Burke is destroying this franchise with his stubborness to draft tough players over skilled. If he wanted to go this truculent route then I have no clue why he traded for Kessel.

Taken from a Biggs thread immediately after he was drafted.

Seems like some Leafs fans were very vocal about how bad of a first round it was.

The guy who wrote this post nailed it though.

MapleLeafsFan4Ever 12-31-2012 11:55 AM

Take this for what it's worth but when Toronto made the trade with Anaheim to move up to 22nd overall I remember on Bob McKenzie's list of best players still available at that time, Tyler Biggs name had moved up #1. So he assumed by that point Biggs should be a 1st round pick and was right and I know a lot of people respect his opinion. Plus the comments from McKenzie and Pierre McGuire there wasn't anything negative said about Burke moving up to select him.

smitty10 12-31-2012 12:16 PM

We didn't trade Rackell and Gibson for Biggs. It's almost certain that had we kept those picks we wouldn't have selected Rackell or likely Gibson.

Stephen 12-31-2012 12:23 PM

I remain kind of hopeful about Biggs because we need that kind of presence in the orgaization, but the Percy pick is just boring, unimaginative and uninspiring, especially now that we have Finn and Rielly too. Is he a better pro prospect than a Tom Nilsson or a Jesse Blacker who weren't first round picks? No fantastic upside, no real pay off.

It boggles the mind how the Red Wings end up with Xavier Ouellet, who looks like a much better prospect almost a round later.

7even 12-31-2012 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen (Post 56964959)
I remain kind of hopeful about Biggs because we need that kind of presence in the orgaization, but the Percy pick is just boring, unimaginative and uninspiring, especially now that we have Finn and Rielly too. Is he a better pro prospect than a Tom Nilsson or a Jesse Blacker who weren't first round picks? No fantastic upside, no real pay off.

It boggles the mind how the Red Wings end up with Xavier Ouellet, who looks like a much better prospect almost a round later.

I'm actually fine with Percy. Never have too many steady defensive prospects. Never know when one's going to surprise you a la Gunnarsson.

Johny Drama 12-31-2012 12:35 PM

The problem I had with our picks, was not who we took, but the fact we gave up a valueable asset (2nd rounder) to get them. At the time, I was really hoping we would move up to mid first round from our 25 slot, thinking that Sheifele would be available at that range.

Outside the top 10-12 picks in the 011 draft, was pretty much consensus it was a real toss up as to what order players would get picked as there wasnt a lot to chose between them. A 2nd rounder was far too risky and high a price to move up a few slots to get players who may have actually been there anyway.

Bad assessment management

showtime8 12-31-2012 12:39 PM

It seems like half the 2nd round in the 2011 draft is playing on Team Canada's world junior team. (Rattie, Jenner, Ritchie, Ouellet, Harrington & Wotherspoon)


Anyways, the 2011 draft was pretty much scripted in my mind. The Leafs had no physical forwards in their system and after Burke watched the Bruins completely dismantle the Leafs for every divisional game, he decided to do something about it. But this is where Leaf fans are going to need to be extra patient. Much like other players that have the big frames, they take that extra time to get use to how they can fully utilize it. Think about players like Zdeno Chara and even Mats Sundin. Chara wasn't the prescence he is now when he was in Ottawa. His skating was atrocious and really wasn't coordinated, but had the huge reach and a monster shot. And with Sundin, you really got to see him use his frame to his advantage when he was on a line with Antropov and Ponikarovsky. The way they could all use their frames to shield the puck and maintain possession was incredible. But you didn't see that from a young Sundin. So what I'm getting at with Biggs is he's going to be able to play in the NHL because of his size. As soon as his skating improves, as well as his stamina, Leaf fans are going to be able to see him finish checks and really start to see a force infront of the net.

As for Percy, I see him having the same progress as former Calgary Hitmen captain Karl Alzner. Throughout junior they had very similar numbers, so they aren't going to dazzle you with the stat sheet. They've both got amazing leadership qualities and they both see the game very well on the ice. Percy will spend 2 full years in the AHL, much like the aforementioned Alzner and then step into a solid role on the team. Alzner had a solid 2011 playoff and got no credit for it.

blasted_Sabre 12-31-2012 12:59 PM

Jenner is the only one who gives me pause.

Gibson, meh. How many goalies who have good WJC go on to have mediocre to terrible NHL careers? More then those who great careers.

PF typically take longer to develop then other forward positions. Biggs has exceeded all expectations this year and is developing nicely. His combination of size and grit, willingness to use said size, and some offensive talent will be important to us in the future.

Percy is also coming along nicely. He should be a steady top 4 guy for us.

leugangen 12-31-2012 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blasted_Sabre (Post 56965931)
Jenner is the only one who gives me pause.

Gibson, meh. How many goalies who have good WJC go on to have mediocre to terrible NHL careers? More then those who great careers.

PF typically take longer to develop then other forward positions. Biggs has exceeded all expectations this year and is developing nicely. His combination of size and grit, willingness to use said size, and some offensive talent will be important to us in the future.

Percy is also coming along nicely. He should be a steady top 4 guy for us.

I don't hate either of our picks, but seeing that Saad and Gibson were there is hard. I am not basing the Gibson talk on the WJC. He has been a great goalie for awhile, and looks to be getting better and better.

indigobuffalo 12-31-2012 01:30 PM

The only person who has any right to comment in this thread is Duke Silver because he had the good sense to re-post his comment following the draft.

That being said, not one player being mentioned here is getting actual NHL time, and Percy had a severe knee injury last season that delayed his development. Without that knee injury, he might be on the WJC roster and people would be going ga-ga over him and Rielly.

Biggs is a power-forward build. He will take until at least 2014-15 to grow into his body and even then may take another year or so to learn to use it properly before joining the NHL roster.

Everyone needs to take a step back and wait before making definitive decisions on the quality of the draft picks.

DirtyDion03 12-31-2012 01:38 PM

I won't lie I was all for Biggs. I think we had to trade up to get him because Pittsburgh was going to grab him, but I'm not sold on the Percy pick. However, our defensive prospects are looking pretty good and it's always good to have a really really big strength. Makes it easier to make deals.

gmjohnny 12-31-2012 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by indigobuffalo (Post 56966897)
The only person who has any right to comment in this thread is Duke Silver because he had the good sense to re-post his comment following the draft.

That being said, not one player being mentioned here is getting actual NHL time, and Percy had a severe knee injury last season that delayed his development. Without that knee injury, he might be on the WJC roster and people would be going ga-ga over him and Rielly.

Biggs is a power-forward build. He will take until at least 2014-15 to grow into his body and even then may take another year or so to learn to use it properly before joining the NHL roster.

Everyone needs to take a step back and wait before making definitive decisions on the quality of the draft picks.

What about Brett Ritchie? He was in the same draft and is an even better power forward with 1st or 2nd line potential. Biggs is looking more and more like a 3rd to 4th line guy. I hated the trade at the time, Percy was also ranked between 40th and 50th depending. Big forwards were a priority and we could have had Saad, Ritchie, Jenner, or who knows, Biggs may have even been there at 25. Poor judgement by Burke


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