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-   -   At what exact moment did the scales tip for each player's HOF career? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1314245)

kmad 12-31-2012 10:32 PM

At what exact moment did the scales tip for each player's HOF career?
 
Best example I can think of has to be Detroit's 2002 Cup win and personal Conn Smythe win for Nicklas Lidstrom, having already been (basically) awarded his second Norris in two years.

Vladislav Tretiak - 1972 Summit Series

Mats Sundin - the moment he scored his 500th goal

TheDevilMadeMe 12-31-2012 10:39 PM

Martin Brodeur - winning his third Cup in 2003 or officially winning his first Vezina a week later

Ed Belfour - winning the 1999 Cup? He already had Vezinas and several more good seasons, but playoffs were a knock on him until then

Dominik Hasek - winning his third Vezina and first Hart, both in 1997.

Apparently, I have goalies on my mind...

VanIslander 01-01-2013 01:12 AM

Bryan Trottier in 1982 after his fifth consecutive 100+ season, third of four Stanley Cups, fourth NHL all-star game, two years after his Art Ross and Conn Smythe.

Nels Stewart in 1930 after his second Hart in his career year 55 points in 44 games in his fifth season.

Mark Messier in 1990 winning the Hart trophy and captaining a Stanley Cup without Gretzky in Edmonton.

Alex Ovechkin in 2010 after scoring 50 goals for the fourth time in five seasons with five consecutive 1st team NHL all-star selections.

I have bulls on my mind. :naughty:

unknown33 01-01-2013 01:38 AM

Wayne Gretzky?
I'd say after he scored 92 goals in a season, but I'm sure some 'career' guys might disagree.

Hammer Time 01-01-2013 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jagorim Jarg (Post 56978439)
Best example I can think of has to be Detroit's 2002 Cup win and personal Conn Smythe win for Nicklas Lidstrom, having already been (basically) awarded his second Norris in two years.

Vladislav Tretiak - 1972 Summit Series


Mats Sundin - the moment he scored his 500th goal

Isn't that a bit early in his career? He was only 20 at the time. Would he really be a Hall of Famer without his 1979-1984 peak?

Big Phil 01-01-2013 10:36 AM

If he wasn't already, I'd say when Lemieux had the 46 game scoring streak in 1989-'90 and then had his back injury which was the only reason it ended.

Conversely, Crosby with his 25 game point streak in 2010-'11. By then you would have to think had he never played another game that he would be a name that would get brought up constantly if he never got in.

In all honesty, with Gretzky I would say when the Oilers won the Cup in 1984. There was no going back then. The Oilers weren't weak kneed wimps at that time and not only could Gretzky score a ton but he could win. This was the end of his 5th season and there wasn't a knock on him anymore.

Pronger after his 2006 Cup run, the one knock (other than injuries) people had on him was his ability to have a great playoff

jigglysquishy 01-01-2013 10:57 AM

If Gretzky retired after his third season (92 goals 120 assists) he would be in the HoF.

Hardyvan123 01-01-2013 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unknown33 (Post 56980265)
Wayne Gretzky?
I'd say after he scored 92 goals in a season, but I'm sure some 'career' guys might disagree.

Not sure that he would have gotten in after only 3 NHL (and 1 WHA) seasons as great as they were, maybe with a SC or 2 but we all know what happened so it doesn't really matter I guess.

One would really have to ask one of the voting members or a past one as the whole process is cloaked with secrecy.

mrhockey193195 01-01-2013 02:26 PM

Sakic in 1996.

Ivan13 01-01-2013 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrhockey193195 (Post 56987115)
Sakic in 1996.

I doubt he gets on without the later years of his career, where he proved himself as a durable, two way leader of a perrenial contender. His 2000/2001 season was the clincher and his 2006/07 season (when he become the 2nd oldest player to score 100 point in a single season, with the oldest being Gordie Howe) was just an icing on the cake.

pdd 01-02-2013 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Phil (Post 56983275)
If he wasn't already, I'd say when Lemieux had the 46 game scoring streak in 1989-'90 and then had his back injury which was the only reason it ended.

Lemieux and Yzerman were both in after 88-89. Everything else was gravy. Lemieux for sure, and at worst Yzerman takes one more year.

Quote:

In all honesty, with Gretzky I would say when the Oilers won the Cup in 1984.
Gretzky was in after 81-82. No ifs, ands, or buts.

Quote:

Pronger after his 2006 Cup run, the one knock (other than injuries) people had on him was his ability to have a great playoff
Pronger was in after his 2000 season, which was his second Norris nomination and first win, as well as his Hart win. He also was top-four for the third straight season despite injury. At worst, he hits the Hall in 2004 when he gets his third nomination and fifth top-five ranking.

PhillyBluesFan 01-02-2013 05:53 AM

Pronger man-handling the Red Wings in 06

Psycho Papa Joe 01-02-2013 06:32 AM

Bob Gainey - Winning the Conn Smythe in 1979. There had been great 3rd line checkers before, but never had any one of them won a major NHL award the level of a Conn. Winning one on a team full of Conn contenders was especially impressive.

Big Phil 01-02-2013 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eva unit zero (Post 57003577)
Gretzky was in after 81-82. No ifs, ands, or buts.

I am as big of a Gretzky backer as anyone but I am not so sure. He would have just finished a postseason where the Oilers blew a 5-0 third period lead and the reputation of the Oilers at that time was literally the name: "Weak kneed wimps." Sure Gretzky could score, but what would those three seasons look like in retrospect? Just a gifted player who had an extremely short career that couldn't lead? I think you are underestimating just how much criticism Gretzky got (in the postseason) of course until the Oilers finally won the Cup.

pdd 01-03-2013 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Phil (Post 57036575)
I am as big of a Gretzky backer as anyone but I am not so sure. He would have just finished a postseason where the Oilers blew a 5-0 third period lead and the reputation of the Oilers at that time was literally the name: "Weak kneed wimps." Sure Gretzky could score, but what would those three seasons look like in retrospect? Just a gifted player who had an extremely short career that couldn't lead? I think you are underestimating just how much criticism Gretzky got (in the postseason) of course until the Oilers finally won the Cup.

There is zero chance that a player who owned the league scoring record by a margin of sixty points would be kept out of the Hall.

Hammer Time 01-05-2013 12:21 AM

Patrick Roy - winning his 3rd Vezina in 1992. Even after winning his 2nd Vezina he only had 2 Vezinas + Conn Smythe in 5 years, most of them spent in a tandem, which is similar to Tim Thomas' record, and it's not certain Thomas will get in.

Winning his second Conn Smythe the following year made him an absolute lock.

Big Phil 01-05-2013 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eva unit zero (Post 57042297)
There is zero chance that a player who owned the league scoring record by a margin of sixty points would be kept out of the Hall.

Yes but we are talking about three NHL seasons. Not a lot of staying power. After failing to lead the Oilers against a weak L.A. team the vision of Gretzky would have been vastly different. There is no denying he had an unbelievable year beyond all comprehension in 1982 but the playoff failure and the fact that we would always wonder if it was just a fluke year would be a nagging question on the minds of the voters. Plus the way he would leave the game would have an effect. It's hard to believe now because we know what became of him but in 1982 Gretzky certainly had his critics and his critics LOVED the Oilers losing.

quoipourquoi 01-05-2013 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meteor (Post 57119939)
Patrick Roy - winning his 3rd Vezina in 1992. Even after winning his 2nd Vezina he only had 2 Vezinas + Conn Smythe in 5 years, most of them spent in a tandem, which is similar to Tim Thomas' record, and it's not certain Thomas will get in.

Winning his second Conn Smythe the following year made him an absolute lock.

I'd split the difference and say he was in by 1991. Leader in save percentage three times by that point (a feat that only Roy and Hasek have accomplished since it became an official statistic), an additional 2nd place finish, a fifth place finish, two Vezinas, three Jennings, two 1st Team All-Stars, two 2nd Team All-Stars, a Conn Smythe, two Stanley Cup Finals, a Calder Cup, and an 11-2 record in playoff overtime. Let's say his sinus operation in the off-season ended his career: I think he's still in. 1992 made him a 1st Ballot HOFer.

Dissonance 01-05-2013 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Phil (Post 57120055)
Yes but we are talking about three NHL seasons. Not a lot of staying power. After failing to lead the Oilers against a weak L.A. team the vision of Gretzky would have been vastly different.

I don't think so. People would've also looked back on Gretzky's '81 playoffs, which were utterly astounding at the time. He wiped the floor with a 103-point Montreal team in the first round, and all the newspapers were making a big deal of the fact that Gretzky had just snatched away Lafleur's title as the league's most dominant player. That was *the* story of the spring.

Then he had a great series against the Islanders in the second round, even though Langevin and Trottier were smacking him around and eventually wore him down toward the end. That was by far the toughest series the Islanders faced that year and Gretzky got basically all of the credit for it. Remember, he was playing on a sub-.500 team and still put up 21 points in 9 games. It was a big reason why he was on the cover of Sports Illustrated before the 1981-82 season even started.

The '82 playoffs were a huge disappointment, sure, but if he'd vanished off the face of the earth that summer he'd still have been a lock for the HHOF.

vadim sharifijanov 01-05-2013 08:31 AM

when bure won his second straight rocket richard trophy, i think he became undeniable. questions about longevity and attitude remained, but to that point he'd already had so many checks in his favour: one of the most memorable players of all time, defining playoff run, defining international tournament, defining MVP candidate season; then add a fifth 50 goal year and a third goal scoring championship, which both mechanically put him in very elite company.

Hardyvan123 01-05-2013 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe (Post 57006675)
Bob Gainey - Winning the Conn Smythe in 1979. There had been great 3rd line checkers before, but never had any one of them won a major NHL award the level of a Conn. Winning one on a team full of Conn contenders was especially impressive.


Gainey was only 25 in 79.

As much as I respect Gainey and what he brought to the game he doesn't deserve to be in the HHOF unless other top defensive players, most with better two way games are as well.

Guys like Craig Ramsey, John Tonelli and Butch goring come to mind.

Hardyvan123 01-05-2013 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Phil (Post 57120055)
Yes but we are talking about three NHL seasons. Not a lot of staying power. After failing to lead the Oilers against a weak L.A. team the vision of Gretzky would have been vastly different. There is no denying he had an unbelievable year beyond all comprehension in 1982 but the playoff failure and the fact that we would always wonder if it was just a fluke year would be a nagging question on the minds of the voters. Plus the way he would leave the game would have an effect. It's hard to believe now because we know what became of him but in 1982 Gretzky certainly had his critics and his critics LOVED the Oilers losing.

I would tend to agree here, in the 3 seasons there were 13,12, and 8 100 point players.

that's a total of 33 guys in 3 years when in the previous 19 years there was a grand total of 48 players.

Surely even as great as Wayne was he would have needed more than 3 years to get into the HHOF if something had happened then.

Like Phil mentions Wayne and the style of play the Oilers had, still had many critics and the lack of a Stanely Cup might have kept him out before maybe 83 but by 84 I think he would have been a lock after winning the cup and having 38 and 35 point post seasons along with his 212 and 196 point regular seasons.

Likewise with Mario, until he hoists the Cup in 91, I don't think he would have been a lock either.

Big Phil 01-05-2013 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe (Post 57006675)
Bob Gainey - Winning the Conn Smythe in 1979. There had been great 3rd line checkers before, but never had any one of them won a major NHL award the level of a Conn. Winning one on a team full of Conn contenders was especially impressive.

He still needed some more time. He won two more Selkes after that, played in another Canada Cup and won another Stanley Cup in 1986. All the while playing the entire decade of the 1980s and still being a premier defensive forward. The odd person gripes about Gainey being in the HHOF as it stands now, imagine had he left the game in 1979. No, I think he needed more time.

whatname 01-06-2013 07:10 PM

The 97 Norris for Brian Leetch. He had a good case prior to that, given he'd played less than a decade, but that Norris pretty much sealed it.

BubbaBoot 01-06-2013 07:37 PM

Bobby Orr.....at birth.


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