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-   -   Sid and Geno on the PK (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1314569)

Shockmaster 01-01-2013 09:56 PM

Sid and Geno on the PK
 
I think there was a thread on this after last season ended, but I didn't feel like digging it up. Looking around at other teams, they use their star players on the PK. Guys like Giroux, Toews, Hossa, Sharp, Nash, Parise, Stamkos, and even an offensive weapon like Kovulchuk spent considerable time on their team's PK. Meanwhile, the Penguins use up roster spots on guys like Adams that prevent younger guys like Jeffrey and Tangradi from getting more playing time. Guys like Cooke and Dupuis, while they're still suitable players, aren't getting any younger.

From what I understand, Malkin is considered an elite PKer when he plays for Russia. Sid, while he hasn't spent much time on the PK in his career, is a very gritty player. He looks like someone that would absolutely thrive on the PK. Both would provide offensive threats on the PK that might make the other team's PP think twice.

I'm guessing the biggest issue is that the Pens fear they could get hurt blocking shots, but a) it's hockey, plently of ways they could get hurt regardless, and b) Sid blocks shots when he has to anyways (took one near the family jewels in Anaheim a few years ago when MAF was out of position).

Sidney the Kidney 01-01-2013 10:20 PM

I've always felt they've been under utilized on the PK. I'm not saying they should be out there on the first (or even second) PK unit, but they should get more minutes than they do, especially when the Pens run into penalty trouble and are shorthanded for the majority of the period and they're sitting on the bench most of that time.

Fordy 01-01-2013 10:50 PM

There's no reason they shouldn't be, and they would tear it up.

alexfr 01-01-2013 11:22 PM

I would have to agree to an extent. I do think having Cros and Malkin could even generate some offense on the PK but at the same point, I wouldnt mind waiting another year so that we could test it out over a whole season. I am feeling pretty optimistic about hockey this year and over 48 games it may not be something we want to force.

To be honest, I dont think Adams or Cooke comes back after next season so it will be a good transition point to bring the 2 big guns in

Ugene Malkin 01-02-2013 01:22 AM

I'd rather not use Sid that way for obvious reasons.

BigBenSF* 01-02-2013 01:28 AM

Injury is big here, I wouldn't want to see Geno or Sid take a slapper to the face. If Adams goes I would like to see Vitale on the PK moreso than the two big guys, let them rest and let the scrappy guys fight it out.

cheesedanish87 01-02-2013 01:42 AM

The only time id want to see sid or geno on pk is if there down by a goal in a big game at the end of the year or in the playoffs. There only gonna play about 20-25 mins a game id rather them playing at even strength and pp time.

Jesus Vitale 01-02-2013 01:50 AM

I don't think they're not used on the PK because someone is afraid of them getting injured. i just think that everyone is confident in everyone else to get the job of not allowing a goal done. every shift that Malkin or Crosby play on the PK, that's a shift that they're not taking even strength or on the PP.

#66 01-02-2013 05:07 AM

I would rather see them on the full 2 mins of the PP.

Ogrezilla 01-02-2013 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaseyPierroZabotel17 (Post 57003299)
I don't think they're not used on the PK because someone is afraid of them getting injured. i just think that everyone is confident in everyone else to get the job of not allowing a goal done. every shift that Malkin or Crosby play on the PK, that's a shift that they're not taking even strength or on the PP.

pretty much this. The only time I would put them on the PK is when we take consecutive penalties. Don't want them on the bench for too long.

wgknestrick 01-02-2013 07:22 AM

Both already play around their max number of minutes. I'd rather let Cooke eat pucks to the skates than Crosby. IMO, you don't want to waste a shift of Malkin/Crosby stuck in their own zone.

I agree that employing Adams (entirely) instead of DJ or any other young player is a mistake on the 4th line / PK role.

Jag68Sid87 01-02-2013 08:11 AM

I've been arguing this since they became $8.7 million men. It makes zero sense to me that they're not being used in crucial situations like the PK. Our team is built around these two guys, and yet we use other guys in more critical situations. Doesn't make any sense. From a strategic point of view, we give the other team a pass by not having the 'threat' of Sid and Geno out there on the PK.

When we had Staal, you could almost make the argument to leave Sid and Geno on the bench during all PKs. NOW? Well, if we're sitting 87 and 71 every 2 minutes we have to kill, and we're using the likes of Brandon Sutter, Matt Cooke, Pascal Dupuis and Tanner Glass ahead of them...to me that's playing right into the opponents' hands.

Just one of MANY things I'd like to see changed from a strategy perspective by our overrated head coach.

Ogrezilla 01-02-2013 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 (Post 57007951)
I've been arguing this since they became $8.7 million men. It makes zero sense to me that they're not being used in crucial situations like the PK. Our team is built around these two guys, and yet we use other guys in more critical situations. Doesn't make any sense. From a strategic point of view, we give the other team a pass by not having the 'threat' of Sid and Geno out there on the PK.

When we had Staal, you could almost make the argument to leave Sid and Geno on the bench during all PKs. NOW? Well, if we're sitting 87 and 71 every 2 minutes we have to kill, and we're using the likes of Brandon Sutter, Matt Cooke, Pascal Dupuis and Tanner Glass ahead of them...to me that's playing right into the opponents' hands.

Just one of MANY things I'd like to see changed from a strategy perspective by our overrated head coach.

The thing is, they play about as many minutes as they are going to play. So if you put them on the PK, that's time they aren't going to play ES or on the PP. The difference between Sid and Cooke is far greater at ES or on the PP than it is on the PK.

I would like to see them get a few PK shifts in certain situations. Particularly when we take a few penalties in short succession just to keep them in the game.

Jag68Sid87 01-02-2013 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ogrezilla (Post 57008929)
The thing is, they play about as many minutes as they are going to play. So if you put them on the PK, that's time they aren't going to play ES or on the PP. The difference between Sid and Cooke is far greater at ES or on the PP than it is on the PK.

I would like to see them get a few PK shifts in certain situations. Particularly when we take a few penalties in short succession just to keep them in the game.

Putting them out there together on the PK is better than a few added shifts together five on five, and it may even be better than playing them together on the PP.

Both guys excel with more room...having them out there 4-on-5 can be almost like even-strength. It plays to their strengths as superstar talents.

Quite frankly, it's moronic not to play them in PK situations. Are they not fit enough to handle Martin St. Louis-type minutes? Seriously?

Course, this would happen with more de-emphasis on the fourth line and greater top-six wingers. But I digress.

This change needs to happen philosophically, first and foremost. But does anyone think our blue-collar coach is going to change his approach? He will live and die with Craig Adams, and when Adams is done he'll find another Adams. It's part of Bylsma's DNA, he will never change.

Does anyone think for a second that if Mario coached the Pens that Sid and Geno would be sitting during PKs? Imagine if Gretzky coached them, would they be sitting out?

I SUPPOSE you could make an argument during an EIGHTY-TWO game season not to use them on the PK until much later in the second half of the season.

But in a 48-game sprint?

Ogrezilla 01-02-2013 09:10 AM

I disagree with you. I guess that means I am a moron.

Shady Machine 01-02-2013 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ogrezilla (Post 57008929)
The thing is, they play about as many minutes as they are going to play. So if you put them on the PK, that's time they aren't going to play ES or on the PP. The difference between Sid and Cooke is far greater at ES or on the PP than it is on the PK.

I would like to see them get a few PK shifts in certain situations. Particularly when we take a few penalties in short succession just to keep them in the game.

How does that differ from a player like Toews, Giroux or Parise? Those guys are playing every PK, first unit PP, and even strength. I don't feel like looking up TOI comparisons between them but it doesn't make sense that other team's best players can do all 3 and be fine.

I don't want them getting top PK minutes, but they should be out there. The Philly series showed our PK needed a change. Those "awesome" PK'ers were getting torched and it was nearly an automatic goal. Meanwhile, Sid and Geno sat on the bench. I guess my thought is you put one of them out there the last 20 seconds of a PK and in consecutive situations to force the opposition back on their heels a bit.

Each game and opponent dictates whether Sid or Geno play the PP. Teams with the big boom slapshot PP like Boston you leave Sid and Geno on the bench. Teams that are more finesse and less about the big shot, you put your best skating guys out there.

Jag68Sid87 01-02-2013 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shady Machine (Post 57009511)
How does that differ from a player like Toews, Giroux or Parise? Those guys are playing every PK, first unit PP, and even strength. I don't feel like looking up TOI comparisons between them but it doesn't make sense that other team's best players can do all 3 and be fine.

I don't want them getting top PK minutes, but they should be out there. The Philly series showed our PK needed a change. Those "awesome" PK'ers were getting torched and it was nearly an automatic goal. Meanwhile, Sid and Geno sat on the bench. I guess my thought is you put one of them out there the last 20 seconds of a PK and in consecutive situations to force the opposition back on their heels a bit.

Each game and opponent dictates whether Sid or Geno play the PP. Teams with the big boom slapshot PP like Boston you leave Sid and Geno on the bench. Teams that are more finesse and less about the big shot, you put your best skating guys out there.

See, I disagree with that last part. You don't let the other team dictate anything. If you have the two best players in the world, YOU do all the dictating and force the other coach to adapt to YOU.

Bylsma's coaching is far too passive, tactically. His attack, attack, attack approach would work far better with more Sid and more Geno.

TheRollingPuck 01-02-2013 09:18 AM

You can go down every team and list off top guys playing PK. It isn't outrageous to have Crosby and Malkin play the PK.

BlindWillyMcHurt 01-02-2013 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shady Machine (Post 57009511)
How does that differ from a player like Toews, Giroux or Parise? Those guys are playing every PK, first unit PP, and even strength. I don't feel like looking up TOI comparisons between them but it doesn't make sense that other team's best players can do all 3 and be fine.

I don't want them getting top PK minutes, but they should be out there. The Philly series showed our PK needed a change. Those "awesome" PK'ers were getting torched and it was nearly an automatic goal. Meanwhile, Sid and Geno sat on the bench. I guess my thought is you put one of them out there the last 20 seconds of a PK and in consecutive situations to force the opposition back on their heels a bit.

Each game and opponent dictates whether Sid or Geno play the PP. Teams with the big boom slapshot PP like Boston you leave Sid and Geno on the bench. Teams that are more finesse and less about the big shot, you put your best skating guys out there.

Yeah this ^

I don't advocate giving them huge PK minutes but they should absolutely be out there in some capacity, particularly when the situation dictates it (lots of penalties against). They would both excel in the role and it would really, really make the other team grip their sticks a little tighter with one or both out on the ice. The team should want their two best players involved in every facet of the game.

So far as the "avoiding injury" thing goes -- that's worked out real well, so far, huh?

Shady Machine 01-02-2013 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 (Post 57009759)
See, I disagree with that last part. You don't let the other team dictate anything. If you have the two best players in the world, YOU do all the dictating and force the other coach to adapt to YOU.

Bylsma's coaching is far too passive, tactically. His attack, attack, attack approach would work far better with more Sid and more Geno.

That's fine and I don't disagree with that. During the regular season, it's a balanced approach. Do you really want to put Sid or Geno out there on a PK with Chara pumping 100 mph slapshots at them during a regular season game in Decemeber? Down the stretch and in the playoffs, you absolutely utilize them as much as possible. However, I still don't think they should be eating tons of PK minutes.

dr robbie 01-02-2013 09:27 AM

Personally, I think Crosby would be killer on the PK. I feel like having him out there during the PK and maybe a little less on ES, would still be an advantage for the team (probably less goals against, and I'm guessing Crosby would be about as effectived on the PK as he would be at ES). Just my theory though.

Jag68Sid87 01-02-2013 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shady Machine (Post 57010133)
That's fine and I don't disagree with that. During the regular season, it's a balanced approach. Do you really want to put Sid or Geno out there on a PK with Chara pumping 100 mph slapshots at them during a regular season game in Decemeber? Down the stretch and in the playoffs, you absolutely utilize them as much as possible. However, I still don't think they should be eating tons of PK minutes.

I want Chara to have more than just getting the howitzer on net to think about when he's on the PP point. If he has Crosby and Malkin out there to worry about, he may not be as comfortable in taking that howitzer from the point.

It works both ways. Instead of our PK forwards constantly looking to block shots, if our stars are out there, the PP may play far more tentatively.

BlindWillyMcHurt 01-02-2013 10:14 AM

Agreed.

Much like what the Philadelphia Flyers did to the Penguins much-vaunted PK in the post season, last year.

Shady Machine 01-02-2013 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlindWillyMcHurt (Post 57011779)
Agreed.

Much like what the Philadelphia Flyers did to the Penguins much-vaunted PK in the post season, last year.

Absolutely. I was screaming at my tv for them to change the PK and put Sid or Geno out there. My only point was maybe you don't do it every game, but I'd certainly be fine with that too. In any case, I totally agree they should be on the PK in some capacity.

BlindWillyMcHurt 01-02-2013 10:23 AM

I don't disagree at all.

I don't think they should be getting big minutes on the PK but there is absolutely no reason at all that they can't be played there when the situation demands it. It's a bit of a waste, otherwise. And yes... I'll still be saying this if/when one of them breaks a foot blocking a shot. You can get grievously injured at any point in any game in any situation.


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