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-   -   Patrick Kane v. Alex Kovalev (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1314707)

ot92s 01-02-2013 09:32 AM

Patrick Kane v. Alex Kovalev
 
a couple players with insane mitts, both with a strong performance in their cup title run. And yet it seems like there should be more production in there somewhere...

I'll take Kane, looks like a faster/quicker skater to my eyes, although I think AK had more sniper in him...

Rhiessan71 01-02-2013 10:30 AM

Kovalev (when he felt like it) could dominate a game on every possible level.
Kane has never been on that kind of level.

Ohashi_Jouzu 01-02-2013 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 (Post 57012199)
Kovalev (when he felt like it) could dominate a game on every possible level.
Kane has never been on that kind of level.

True, although I can see the "when he felt like it" factoring into some votes. Of course, having said that, his "when he felt like it" is almost statistically indistinguishable from Kane - even at age 35.

Psycho Papa Joe 01-02-2013 10:52 AM

Kane seems so much more accomplished than Kovalev at the same age and Kovalev took until 28 or 29 to accomplish career wise what Kane has at 24, that I think this vote is a no brainer for me. Kane.

theicebox 01-02-2013 10:57 AM

Kovalev. I am biased.

Rhiessan71 01-02-2013 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe (Post 57012823)
Kane seems so much more accomplished than Kovalev at the same age and Kovalev took until 28 or 29 to accomplish career wise what Kane has at 24, that I think this vote is a no brainer for me. Kane.

What accomplishments are those exactly?
Stanley Cup ring?
Kane's Calder? Because Kovalev had a chance in hell of beating out one of the top 5 most deserved Calder's in the entire history of the league?

Stephen 01-02-2013 12:51 PM

I prefer Kane.

Kovalev gets a lot of those "he dominated when he felt like it", to bad he didn't feel like it enough.

Kane occupies a higher position on the Hawks totem pole than Kovelev ever did until that breakout year in Pittsburgh much later in his career.

At 23, Kane already has more than half the career playoff points that Kovalev has.

Stephen 01-02-2013 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 (Post 57016471)
What accomplishments are those exactly?
Stanley Cup ring?
Kane's Calder? Because Kovalev had a chance in hell of beating out one of the top 5 most deserved Calder's in the entire history of the league?

Kane had double the points Kovalev did as a rookie.

It took Kovalev 8 years to hit the 70 point mark for the first time. Kane did it in each of his first four NHL seasons.

Ohashi_Jouzu 01-02-2013 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe (Post 57012823)
Kane seems so much more accomplished than Kovalev at the same age and Kovalev took until 28 or 29 to accomplish career wise what Kane has at 24, that I think this vote is a no brainer for me. Kane.

Really? How? Kovalev played on the Russian WJC, Olympic, and World Championship teams by age 18, and got his Cup ring in his second NHL season vs Kane's third season. Patrick Kane is, right now, pretty much exactly where Kovalev was at the same age. Kovalev kept it up for another decade of ~20 goal/~40 assist seasons, though, so Kane either has to "prove" to be better at his best, or he better get compiling because he has quite a track record to chase - even with Kovalev.

Psycho Papa Joe 01-02-2013 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 (Post 57016471)
What accomplishments are those exactly?
Stanley Cup ring?
Kane's Calder? Because Kovalev had a chance in hell of beating out one of the top 5 most deserved Calder's in the entire history of the league?

Kane's scoring finishes have been a lot better was what I meant.

It took until he was 27 years old for Kovalev to have a season of 66pts or better. At 24 years old, Kane had equalled or bettered that mark 5 times.

Ohashi_Jouzu 01-02-2013 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe (Post 57016721)
Kane's scoring finishes have been a lot better was what I meant.

It took until he was 27 years old for Kovalev to have a season of 66pts or better. At 24 years old, Kane had equalled or bettered that mark 5 times.

Of course, at age 24 Kovalev was playing in the DPE, while Kane was playing in the no-touchy feely "new" NHL. But whatever, right?

Stephen 01-02-2013 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu (Post 57016823)
Of course, at age 24 Kovalev was playing in the DPE, while Kane was playing in the no-touchy feely "new" NHL. But whatever, right?

Kovalev wasn't doing that much statistically between 1992 and 1997 when the league was still high scoring...

Kovalev gets way too much credit for looking good doing very little.

kes81sel 01-02-2013 12:58 PM

I choose Kane basically because I think he is a better all around player.

Ohashi_Jouzu 01-02-2013 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen (Post 57016895)
Kovalev wasn't doing that much statistically between 1992 and 1997 when the league was still high scoring...

Kovalev gets way too much credit for looking good doing very little.

Well, it was his first 4 years in a new league, on a new continent, in a new culture. Still got more than 200 points over that time, but almost more importantly he established himself as (talent-wise) one of the best to ever play in the league.

And just back up for a second. Without getting into whether we like Kovalev flavoured coffee in the morning, we're comparing him to Patrick Kane - who hasn't accomplished more than Kovalev, nor distinguished himself as more of a "premier talent".

Hobnobs 01-02-2013 02:34 PM

Chose Kovalev because as to my knowledge, he hasnt robbed anyone.

Stephen 01-02-2013 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu (Post 57017365)
Well, it was his first 4 years in a new league, on a new continent, in a new culture. Still got more than 200 points over that time, but almost more importantly he established himself as (talent-wise) one of the best to ever play in the league.

And just back up for a second. Without getting into whether we like Kovalev flavoured coffee in the morning, we're comparing him to Patrick Kane - who hasn't accomplished more than Kovalev, nor distinguished himself as more of a "premier talent".

Kane is one of the main pillars of the Hawks resurgent who had a Conn Smythe caliber run in the playoffs as a 20 year old sophomore. Seems like he's done more in that two year window than Kovalev has managed his entire career.

Hobnobs 01-02-2013 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen (Post 57021147)
Kane is one of the main pillars of the Hawks resurgent who had a Conn Smythe caliber run in the playoffs as a 20 year old sophomore. Seems like he's done more in that two year window than Kovalev has managed his entire career.

yea and Kovalev was useless on the Rangers :help:

Sens Rule 01-02-2013 03:54 PM

Kane is a tiny player and Kovalev was huge and strong. It is a significant difference.

Stephen 01-02-2013 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hobnobs (Post 57022115)
yea and Kovalev was useless on the Rangers :help:

On Chicago it's Toews and Kane/Keith.

On the Rangers, it was Messier, Leetch, Richter, Zubov and Graves before Kovalev.

Ohashi_Jouzu 01-02-2013 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen (Post 57021147)
Kane is one of the main pillars of the Hawks resurgent who had a Conn Smythe caliber run in the playoffs as a 20 year old sophomore. Seems like he's done more in that two year window than Kovalev has managed his entire career.

And yet... Kovalev was the Rangers' 2nd leading scoring forward (after Messier) when they won the Cup - and he was 21 (Kane was also 21, btw, and also their second highest scoring forward, but hey... details, who needs 'em, amiright). Kovalev actually accomplished more in those two first years; especially if you consider he got WJC AND Olympic gold to end his junior career. What is Kane's record by comparison, bronze/silver?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen (Post 57024471)
On Chicago it's Toews and Kane/Keith.

On the Rangers, it was Messier, Leetch, Richter, Zubov and Graves before Kovalev.

Sharp, Byfuglien, Bolland, Hossa, Versteeg, and Seabrook all frown at you for forgetting how much they contributed to Chicago's Cup.

Fred Taylor 01-02-2013 05:24 PM

Close but Kovalev in his prime was better than Kane.

Hardyvan123 01-02-2013 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe (Post 57012823)
Kane seems so much more accomplished than Kovalev at the same age and Kovalev took until 28 or 29 to accomplish career wise what Kane has at 24, that I think this vote is a no brainer for me. Kane.

that's the way I'm looking at it as well even though I'm a career guy, Kovalev\s top 5 year consecutive peak, 00-04 is slightly better in the regular season but his other great season with Montreal came in 08 and it's pretty hard not seeing Kane who is only 24 right now surpassing Kovalev's prime really quickly, like in a manner of 2 seasons and then he would be 26 and still ahve many productive years left.

Hardyvan123 01-02-2013 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu (Post 57016823)
Of course, at age 24 Kovalev was playing in the DPE, while Kane was playing in the no-touchy feely "new" NHL. But whatever, right?

Sure nobody hits in todays NHL ever that's why there are hardly any injuries like concussions....:shakehead

Here are Kanes 5 years adjusted which are consecutive

72,78,94,79,73 Playoff line of 51-20-32-52

Now here is Kovalev in his best 5 year stretch (99-03)

60,72,103,87,86 Playoff line of 29-6-12-18

Now Kovalev also had years of 91,60,63,67,56,52 and 51 points in his career and a total playoff line of 123-45-55-100 but like I said before we can easily see Kane besting Kovalev's entire maximum prime in as little as 2 years time.

Stephen 01-02-2013 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu (Post 57025505)
And yet... Kovalev was the Rangers' 2nd leading scoring forward (after Messier) when they won the Cup - and he was 21 (Kane was also 21, btw, and also their second highest scoring forward, but hey... details, who needs 'em, amiright). Kovalev actually accomplished more in those two first years; especially if you consider he got WJC AND Olympic gold to end his junior career. What is Kane's record by comparison, bronze/silver?



Sharp, Byfuglien, Bolland, Hossa, Versteeg, and Seabrook all frown at you for forgetting how much they contributed to Chicago's Cup.

Sharp, Byfuglien, Bolland, Hossa, Versteeg and Seabrook can all sit down given Kane scored 28 playoff points as a 21 year old, including the cup winning goal in OT.

Kane was 1st in Hawks scoring in 2007-08
Kane was 2nd in Hawks scoring in 2008-09
Kane was 1st in Hawks scoring in 2009-10
Kane was 2nd in Hawks scoring in 2010-11
Kane was 3rd in Hawks scoring in 2011-12

Kane was the second leading scorer in the playoffs for the Hawks in 2009
Kane was the second leading scorer in the playoffs for the Hawks in 2010
Kane was tied for the lead in the Hawks in playoff scoring in 2011
Kane was tied for the lead in the Hawks in playoff scoring in 2012

In contrast, Kovalev was 8th in Rangers scoring in his rookie year
In 1994, Kovalev was 6th in Rangers regular season scoring
In 1995, Kovalev was 6th in Rangers regular season scoring
In 1996, Kovalev was 5th in Rangers regular season scoring
In 1997, Kovalev was 8th in Rangers regular season scoring (injured for half the year)
In 1998, Kovalev was 3rd in Rangers regular season scoring
In 1999, Kovalev scored a total of 53 points, which would have put him 4th in Rangers and Penguins scoring
In 2000, Kovalev was 2nd in Penguins regular season scoring
In 2001, Kovalev was 2nd in Penguins regular season scoring
In 2002, Kovalev was 1st in Penguins regular season scoring
In 2003, Kovalev scored a total of 77 points, which would have put him 2nd in Penguins scoring and 1st in Rangers scoring
In 2004, Kovalev scored a total of 45 points, which would have put him 2nd in Rangers scoring and 5th in Canadiens scoring
In 2006, Kovalev was 1st in Canadiens regular season scoring
In 2007, Kovalev was 6th in Canadiens regular season scoring
In 2008, Kovalev was 1st in Canadiens regular season scoring
In 2009, Kovalev was 1st in Canadiens regular season scoring
In 2010, Kovalev was 4th in Senators regular season scoring
In 2011, Kovalev scored a total of 34 points which would have put him 3rd in Senators scoring and 6th in Penguins scoring

So you're basically looking at a guy who is guaranteed in top two in scoring on Chicago in five regular seasons and 4 playoffs versus a guy like Kovalev who didn't manage to lead his team in scoring until much later in his career. Has Kane even peaked?

Hobnobs 01-02-2013 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen (Post 57027761)
Sharp, Byfuglien, Bolland, Hossa, Versteeg and Seabrook can all sit down given Kane scored 28 playoff points as a 21 year old, including the cup winning goal in OT.

Kane was 1st in Hawks scoring in 2007-08
Kane was 2nd in Hawks scoring in 2008-09
Kane was 1st in Hawks scoring in 2009-10
Kane was 2nd in Hawks scoring in 2010-11
Kane was 3rd in Hawks scoring in 2011-12

Kane was the second leading scorer in the playoffs for the Hawks in 2009
Kane was the second leading scorer in the playoffs for the Hawks in 2010
Kane was tied for the lead in the Hawks in playoff scoring in 2011
Kane was tied for the lead in the Hawks in playoff scoring in 2012

In contrast, Kovalev was 8th in Rangers scoring in his rookie year
In 1994, Kovalev was 6th in Rangers regular season scoring
In 1995, Kovalev was 6th in Rangers regular season scoring
In 1996, Kovalev was 5th in Rangers regular season scoring
In 1997, Kovalev was 8th in Rangers regular season scoring (injured for half the year)
In 1998, Kovalev was 3rd in Rangers regular season scoring
In 1999, Kovalev scored a total of 53 points, which would have put him 4th in Rangers and Penguins scoring
In 2000, Kovalev was 2nd in Penguins regular season scoring
In 2001, Kovalev was 2nd in Penguins regular season scoring
In 2002, Kovalev was 1st in Penguins regular season scoring
In 2003, Kovalev scored a total of 77 points, which would have put him 2nd in Penguins scoring and 1st in Rangers scoring
In 2004, Kovalev scored a total of 45 points, which would have put him 2nd in Rangers scoring and 5th in Canadiens scoring
In 2006, Kovalev was 1st in Canadiens regular season scoring
In 2007, Kovalev was 6th in Canadiens regular season scoring
In 2008, Kovalev was 1st in Canadiens regular season scoring
In 2009, Kovalev was 1st in Canadiens regular season scoring
In 2010, Kovalev was 4th in Senators regular season scoring
In 2011, Kovalev scored a total of 34 points which would have put him 3rd in Senators scoring and 6th in Penguins scoring

So you're basically looking at a guy who is guaranteed in top two in scoring on Chicago in five regular seasons and 4 playoffs versus a guy like Kovalev who didn't manage to lead his team in scoring until much later in his career. Has Kane even peaked?

oh he scored a cup winner did he? That is some extreme intangibles right there!

Yes kane has peaked.


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