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-   -   ATD 2013 - should all teams make the playoffs? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1314985)

TheDevilMadeMe 01-02-2013 08:36 PM

ATD 2013 - should all teams make the playoffs?
 
Traditionally all teams in the ATD make the playoffs. Should this continue?

If "no" wins, we'll discuss the options.

Dreakmur 01-02-2013 11:35 PM

For me, it would depent entirely on the set-up. In a 4 team division, there's no way 2 teams can miss.

A set-up where we have 6 team divisions with 4 making the play-offs would be a good idea.... but then we'd need to either cut or increase the teams. Since people were talking about dropping to 28 teams, that would work with 4 divisions of 7 and 16 teams making the play-offs.

I'm voting "no", but only under certain conditions.

EagleBelfour 01-03-2013 02:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreakmur (Post 57040249)
For me, it would depent entirely on the set-up. In a 4 team division, there's no way 2 teams can miss.

A set-up where we have 6 team divisions with 4 making the play-offs would be a good idea.... but then we'd need to either cut or increase the teams. Since people were talking about dropping to 28 teams, that would work with 4 divisions of 7 and 16 teams making the play-offs.

I'm voting "no", but only under certain conditions.

In a 4 teams division, I think the plan is that the number1 seed gets a bye, and only the last position doesn't make the playoffs.

Jafar 01-03-2013 06:04 AM

I think it's unfair that you don't have at least one match-up after all the work required to complete a team.

BraveCanadian 01-03-2013 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BenchBrawl (Post 57053457)
I think it's unfair that you don't have at least one match-up after all the work required to complete a team.

Agreed.

tony d 01-03-2013 09:01 AM

Depends on the setup to me, if we go with 8 4 team divisions then I'm for a top 3 teams in each division making the playoffs format. However if we stick with the 4 8 team divisions then I suggest each team make the playoffs. Whatever format we go with I'm all for it.

seventieslord 01-03-2013 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BenchBrawl (Post 57053457)
I think it's unfair that you don't have at least one match-up after all the work required to complete a team.

that's the biggest thing for me too.

The playoff matchup is also where you get your most detailed criticism so that you know what to do better next time. Otherwise, you might just finish 8th and that's it.

Nalyd Psycho 01-03-2013 10:57 AM

I think it really skews the draft because it makes it so a future hall of famer like Joe Thornton is essentially a liability, while inferior players like Marty Barry and Claude Lemieux are great picks. If playoffs were not guaranteed, players could not be judged solely on their playoff performance, which is largely what happens.

With four team divisions, we could have a divisional debate thread before regular season voting which would allow all GMs to stand up for their team and find out the criticisms of their team.

seventieslord 01-03-2013 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho (Post 57062373)
I think it really skews the draft because it makes it so a future hall of famer like Joe Thornton is essentially a liability, while inferior players like Marty Barry and Claude Lemieux are great picks. If playoffs were not guaranteed, players could not be judged solely on their playoff performance, which is largely what happens.

With four team divisions, we could have a divisional debate thread before regular season voting which would allow all GMs to stand up for their team and find out the criticisms of their team.

It needs to be stressed that players should be judged only based on their regular season records in the regular season.

I think it also needs to be stressed that players in the playoffs should still be judged mostly on their regular season records, with a slight bump up or down based on their playoff performances.

the first part should be a rule, the second part is entirely subjective. If one wants to say Johan Franzen is far superior to Ray Whitney because it's now the playoffs, who can stop them?

EagleBelfour 01-03-2013 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord (Post 57064497)
It needs to be stressed that players should be judged only based on their regular season records in the regular season.

I think it also needs to be stressed that players in the playoffs should still be judged mostly on their regular season records, with a slight bump up or down based on their playoff performances.

the first part should be a rule, the second part is entirely subjective. If one wants to say Johan Franzen is far superior to Ray Whitney because it's now the playoffs, who can stop them?

This point is stressed every single drafts, and I believe it's still remain a problem every single time.

Reen & 70's has a point and now I believe everyone has to make some kind of playoffs. Could a good compromise be to separate playoffs for the 'best of the rest' (4th places team), like a relegation round (without relegation of course)? Most teams that will finish last will probably be GM's with less experience (knock on wood) and if they really like learning about the game of hockey they will see this as a good opportunity to better their skills, and as 70's said: ''The playoff matchup is also where you get your most detailed criticism so that you know what to do better next time.''

seventieslord 01-03-2013 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EagleBelfour (Post 57067437)
This point is stressed every single drafts, and I believe it's still remain a problem every single time.

Reen & 70's has a point and now I believe everyone has to make some kind of playoffs. Could a good compromise be to separate playoffs for the 'best of the rest' (4th places team), like a relegation round (without relegation of course)? Most teams that will finish last will probably be GM's with less experience (knock on wood) and if they really like learning about the game of hockey they will see this as a good opportunity to better their skills, and as 70's said: ''The playoff matchup is also where you get your most detailed criticism so that you know what to do better next time.''

I think I have suggested a "B-side" in the past as well.

EagleBelfour 01-03-2013 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord (Post 57068373)
I think I have suggested a "B-side" in the past as well.

Than it should be a possibility, and this option would get my vote.

Nalyd Psycho 01-03-2013 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord (Post 57064497)
It needs to be stressed that players should be judged only based on their regular season records in the regular season.

I think it also needs to be stressed that players in the playoffs should still be judged mostly on their regular season records, with a slight bump up or down based on their playoff performances.

the first part should be a rule, the second part is entirely subjective. If one wants to say Johan Franzen is far superior to Ray Whitney because it's now the playoffs, who can stop them?

Given that most players have a small sample size for post season, regular season play should always be the key factor in a players value. And yet, still one hot streak in the playoffs gets players massively overrated. And yet no one wants to do anything to correct this problem in the ATD.

Hawkey Town 18 01-03-2013 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho (Post 57069929)
Given that most players have a small sample size for post season, regular season play should always be the key factor in a players value. And yet, still one hot streak in the playoffs gets players massively overrated. And yet no one wants to do anything to correct this problem in the ATD.

Agree with you here...The players that should be getting boosts in the playoffs should be the guys who always stepped it up over a large number of years, the Messiers, the Fedorovs, etc.

EDIT: I will admit that I put more emphasis on the playoffs for goalies than other positions, and I think that difference is justified (but the majority of their evaluation should still come from their regular season resume).

seventieslord 01-03-2013 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho (Post 57069929)
Given that most players have a small sample size for post season, regular season play should always be the key factor in a players value. And yet, still one hot streak in the playoffs gets players massively overrated. And yet no one wants to do anything to correct this problem in the ATD.

I do! But what can any one person do, besides make a good case for why a player's regular season resume is a much better example of what you'll get in the playoffs, than their playoff record? Like I said, in the end, people will still think what they think.

Nalyd Psycho 01-03-2013 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord (Post 57070735)
I do! But what can any one person do, besides make a good case for why a player's regular season resume is a much better example of what you'll get in the playoffs, than their playoff record? Like I said, in the end, people will still think what they think.

You can vote to have teams miss the playoffs. If playoffs are not guaranteed, strong regular season performers have a marked increase in value.

TheDevilMadeMe 01-03-2013 03:28 PM

I don't think players get judged based only on what they did in the playoffs anymore. Look at the last two goalies to win the draft - Tony Esposito and Tiny Thompson. 1 Cup as a starter and a lot of playoff chokes between them.

In addition to Tiny Thompson, the last playoff winner featured Moose Johnson, Pat Lafontaine, and Alexander Mogilny prominently - none of them with much of a playoff record (and in Mogilny's case, a fairly poor one).

seventieslord 01-03-2013 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 57073185)
I don't think players get judged based only on what they did in the playoffs anymore. Look at the last two goalies to win the draft - Tony Esposito and Tiny Thompson. 1 Cup as a starter and a lot of playoff chokes between them.

In addition to Tiny Thompson, the last playoff winner featured Moose Johnson, Pat Lafontaine, and Alexander Mogilny prominently - none of them with much of a playoff record (and in Mogilny's case, a fairly poor one).

You are forgetting about Johnson's important role with the Dynasty Wanderers.

TheDevilMadeMe 01-03-2013 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord (Post 57076403)
You are forgetting about Johnson's important role with the Dynasty Wanderers.

You're right and maybe I should have been more clear, but Johnson was a scoring forward when he won the Cup with the Wanderers. As a defensive defenseman (which is what he spent the majority of his career as and what he's always drafted as), he has a very thin playoff record.

vecens24 01-03-2013 05:07 PM

As the person who kind of mentioned the format of a situation where not all teams make the playoffs, obviously I'm a big fan. We need a system where people are rated properly in the regular season, as Nalyd said.

The only possible downside I see to not everyone making the playoffs is more conservative drafting, leading to lesser "diamonds in the rough" being found (although at this point I think we've got a pretty goo handle on this as far as ATD guys go).

TheDevilMadeMe 01-03-2013 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vecens24 (Post 57076755)
As the person who kind of mentioned the format of a situation where not all teams make the playoffs, obviously I'm a big fan. We need a system where people are rated properly in the regular season, as Nalyd said.

The only possible downside I see to not everyone making the playoffs is more conservative drafting, leading to lesser "diamonds in the rough" being found (although at this point I think we've got a pretty goo handle on this as far as ATD guys go).

That and potentially turning off newbies who poured hours into the draft only to be left in the cold come playoff time.

I'm curious to hear from Billy Shoes on this one. In his first draft, he was an 8th seed and got swept by my #1 seed that would go on to win the championship that draft, despite putting forth a strong effort in the playoffs. Now, a few years later, he's one of the better GMs in these things. Curious to know if he thought getting obliterated in the first round in his first get-go was worth it.

Anyone else who feels they learned from getting beaten badly in the first round, please comment too. I just have fond and clear memories of ATD 2010 for obvious reasons.

I love the idea of a new playoff format to keep things fresh, but I'm not sure if the potential cost is worth it (I haven't voted yet).

seventieslord 01-03-2013 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho (Post 57071087)
You can vote to have teams miss the playoffs. If playoffs are not guaranteed, strong regular season performers have a marked increase in value.

At first I was going to say "good point!" but this is a fail unless it is accompanied by a shift in how people view players. If people are voting based on some sort of a "mix" of regular season and playoffs in the regular season, then you aren't creating the incentive for guys to get better regular season players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 57076991)
Anyone else who feels they learned from getting beaten badly in the first round, please comment too. I just have fond and clear memories of ATD 2010 for obvious reasons.

Absolutely! See my ATD8 series.

Dwight 01-03-2013 06:50 PM

Yes. It gives the GM the opportunity to explain himself, and of course, nobody likes spending all that time researching and drafting just to be told to go home afterwards.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 57076991)
Anyone else who feels they learned from getting beaten badly in the first round, please comment too. I just have fond and clear memories of ATD 2010 for obvious reasons.

I love the idea of a new playoff format to keep things fresh, but I'm not sure if the potential cost is worth it (I haven't voted yet).

My first ATD, I finished in last place and got swept by seventieslord in round 1.

The big lesson was to not just pick players that I was familiar with, and to dig a bit deeper and see what I could find. It was also important to have a vision for your team and not just piece players together haphazardly. It was also good to just get a reality check - people out there have been doing this far longer than I have, and even though I think Player A is good, in an all-time context, he may simply be average or less.

Things like that help me look back fondly on my first ATD.

Nalyd Psycho 01-03-2013 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seventieslord (Post 57079255)
At first I was going to say "good point!" but this is a fail unless it is accompanied by a shift in how people view players. If people are voting based on some sort of a "mix" of regular season and playoffs in the regular season, then you aren't creating the incentive for guys to get better regular season players.

We have been seeing a slow shift in this, but the problem has always been, what's the point, teams with Dionne, Selanne, Thronton etc... are more likely to win the division, but winning the division is a hollow act under the current system. And if we implement a regular season debate, then that would even increase the ability for GMs to emphasize their teams ability in a regular season environment. And if division champs get a bye and last place gets eliminated, it creates an incentive to do well in that section. And the debate also ensures that every GM gets a fair chance to fight for their team, which is the main point of having every team make the playoffs.

TheDevilMadeMe 01-03-2013 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho (Post 57080371)
We have been seeing a slow shift in this, but the problem has always been, what's the point, teams with Dionne, Selanne, Thronton etc... are more likely to win the division, but winning the division is a hollow act under the current system. And if we implement a regular season debate, then that would even increase the ability for GMs to emphasize their teams ability in a regular season environment. And if division champs get a bye and last place gets eliminated, it creates an incentive to do well in that section. And the debate also ensures that every GM gets a fair chance to fight for their team, which is the main point of having every team make the playoffs.

How would a regular season debate thread be different from a lineup assassination thread?


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