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-   -   Why can't Czech Republic, Finland, Slovakia produce any great skaters anymore? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1314993)

wings5 01-02-2013 09:58 PM

Why can't Czech Republic, Finland, Slovakia produce any great skaters anymore?
 
Not too long ago Czech has good skaters like Havlat, Hemsky, Michalek, Erat, yes they were sparse but there were some. Now in juniors I can't even remember the last good skater they've had. Of their talented players at this years WJC Hertl, Frk, Jaskin, Musil none are seen as particularly good skaters and this goes back for years. Finland had Selanne, Peltonen amongst others now good skating forwards are rare from this country with the most mobile being found on defence. Slovakia had speedy players like Gaborik, Hossa, Zednik now their talented forwards are also lacking in speed. This is what separates good from elite forwards and the reason why a country like Switzerland could hang with Russia was their speed. So, what's happening in these countries in regards to them producing poor skating players?

TheDiver* 01-02-2013 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wings5 (Post 57033007)
Not too long ago Czech has good skaters like Havlat, Hemsky, Michalek, Erat, yes they were sparse but there were some. Now in juniors I can't even remember the last good skater they've had. Of their talented players at this years WJC Hertl, Frk, Jaskin, Musil none are seen as particularly good skaters and this goes back for years. Finland had Selanne, Peltonen amongst others now good skating forwards are rare from this country with the most mobile being found on defence. Slovakia had speedy players like Gaborik, Hossa, Zednik now their talented forwards are also lacking in speed. This is what separates good from elite forwards and the reason why a country like Switzerland could hang with Russia was their speed. So, what's happening in these countries in regards to them producing poor skating players?

Im going to sum up this entire thread...


:facepalm:

RageEllimama 01-02-2013 10:09 PM

Czech's and Finns will do just fine. It's just the Slovaks who are in decline and getting old (No offence)

wings5 01-02-2013 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDiver (Post 57033117)
Im going to sum up this entire thread...


:facepalm:

ok?.. It was just an observation, what keeps these teams out of the top 4 in the tournament year after year is their team has no elite skaters compared to the others nations. Basically every player on Russia has good speed and Sweden and USA typically produce very good skaters as well because they focus on skating at the youth level before body checking and some other skills.The amount of poor skaters on the Czech team in the game v USA was painful to watch.

ViD 01-03-2013 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RageEllimama (Post 57033413)
Czech's and Finns will do just fine. It's just the Slovaks who are in decline and getting old (No offence)

What skaters have Czechs produced recently other than Voracek?

The Zetterberg Era 01-03-2013 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wings5 (Post 57033485)
ok?.. It was just an observation, what keeps these teams out of the top 4 in the tournament year after year is their team has no elite skaters compared to the others nations. Basically every player on Russia has good speed and Sweden and USA typically produce very good skaters as well because they focus on skating at the youth level before body checking and some other skills.The amount of poor skaters on the Czech team in the game v USA was painful to watch.

I think the Russians have plenty of speed, Yakupov although not connecting on any of his hopeful breakaways probably has the most explosive first step in the tournament. I also disagree that Hertl isn't a good skater, I thought he was fast everytime I watched him this tournament.

I do think if you listen to the stories on the American guys skating is a big part of what they think makes elite players. They all talk about power skating classes and coaches. That is something the American players and development people with USA hockey seem to stress. Of course they could use players that slow down every once in a while and don't just stay stuck in turbo mode.

QnebO 01-03-2013 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wings5 (Post 57033485)
ok?.. It was just an observation, what keeps these teams out of the top 4 in the tournament year after year..

You've gotta be kidding, out of top 4 year after year? Haha:laugh: I thought we keep medaling all the time.. specially in best on best. This is so not true other ways too. Finlands situation has just got better in last few years: "New players" that I really like are Granlund, Armia, Komarov, Ristolainen, Vatanen for example.. and there is more. Also Koivu, Ruutu, Korpikoski, Flppula agegroup aint that old (you mentioned Selanne agegroup).


Not very good topic imo, it would've been like 5 yearsa go. But now our situation is already much better. I think Finland produces more than ever, it just happens we're waiting for the "Next one". If Canada had 5 million people, I doubt it would produce as much good players as Finland. If you only think about WJC, maybe one reason for less succes in u20 level compared to adult level is the fact that U20 isn't very big deal. The team has horrible coaches. Last guy we had was really new into coaching. That tells you how much finnish hockey federation (sadly, true) cares about WJC right now. It should care more thought. Also I think that for some reason finnish kids seem to mature litle later than americans. I mean, Getzlaf looked like he's 40 when he was 20! And Granlund, even named FBJ, is completely different. He might be having he's first beard by now. Might. So I think usually finnish teams lack muscle in u20, but in adult level they dont. Hey, Finland actually won the U16 Olympic Gold last time, beating all other top countries on that age group.

LSnow 01-03-2013 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QnebO (Post 57041017)
You've gotta be kidding, out of top 4 year after year? Haha:laugh: This is so not true other ways too. Finlands situation has just got better in last few years: "New players" that I really like are Granlund, Armia, Komarov, Ristolainen, Vatanen for example.. and there is more. Also Koivu, Ruutu, Korpikoski, Flppula agegroup aint that old (you mentioned Selanne agegroup).


Not very good topic imo. I think Finland produces more than ever, it just happens we're waiting for the "Next one". If Canada had 5 million people, I doubt it would produce as much good players as Finland. If you only think about WJC, maybe one reason for less succes in u20 level compared to adult level is the fact that U20 isn't very big deal. The team has horrible coaches. Last guy we had was on his first ever coaching duty.. he was newbie in coaching. That tells you how much finnish hockey federation (sadly, true) cares about WJC right now. It should care more thought. Also I think that for some reason finnish kids seem to mature litle later than americans. I mean, Getzlaf looked like he's 40 when he was 20! And Granlund, even named FBJ, is completely different. He might be having he's first beard by now. Might.

While that Getzlaf thing was a joke, it is actually true. It's weird when 17-18 year old US teens look like they are in their mid 20's.

Tiranis 01-03-2013 01:06 AM

Not sure why this thread is being met with such hostility, especially since a lot of posters seem to be misunderstanding the OP. I think it's a valid concern, certainly for recent Czech prospects. Not as familiar with everyone Finland has but it seems to be a valid concern there too. I think Slovaks have had some pretty good skaters recently, but maybe I'm wrong?

That said, I don't have any answers. All I can think of is that skating lessons are not emphasized in those countries. Power skating is certainly a big deal in Canada and US, not sure about Sweden but I'm guessing it is there too based on their results.

WarriorofTime 01-03-2013 01:11 AM

Finland is a small country that produces a lot of good players. It's going to be hard for them to win an age group specific tournament like the WJC but they're usually in there. Czech Republic and Slovakia aren't very big (Slovakia is smaller). Hockey is popular but not the most popular sport. Development has lagged behind in recent times but I don't doubt the Czechs at least can come back. Slovaks may lag behind and be around Switzerland. Canada, USA, and Russia are all very big nations with nobody matching Canada's passion. Sweden has excellent development at the moment which wasn't really the case a decade or so ago.

Sean Monahan 01-03-2013 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiranis (Post 57041453)
Not sure why this thread is being met with such hostility, especially since a lot of posters seem to be misunderstanding the OP. I think it's a valid concern, certainly for recent Czech prospects. Not as familiar with everyone Finland has but it seems to be a valid concern there too. I think Slovaks have had some pretty good skaters recently, but maybe I'm wrong?

That said, I don't have any answers. All I can think of is that skating lessons are not emphasized in those countries. Power skating is certainly a big deal in Canada and US, not sure about Sweden but I'm guessing it is there too based on their results.

Isn't Vrana supposedly a good skater?

QnebO 01-03-2013 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiranis (Post 57041453)
Not sure why this thread is being met with such hostility, especially since a lot of posters seem to be misunderstanding the OP. I think it's a valid concern, certainly for recent Czech prospects. Not as familiar with everyone Finland has but it seems to be a valid concern there too. I think Slovaks have had some pretty good skaters recently, but maybe I'm wrong?

That said, I don't have any answers. All I can think of is that skating lessons are not emphasized in those countries. Power skating is certainly a big deal in Canada and US, not sure about Sweden but I'm guessing it is there too based on their results.

You mean this only about skating ability/skill? Well, wow, what can I say? I though't this means "all players except goalies" when it says "skaters". This gives slightly new way to look at this... So I dont blame the topic started any more at all, now I see. Maybe other's who "disliked" this clearly had this same mistake.

I'll put one fast skater here:

A. Pihlström, he's probably faster than Selanne was in hes prime. Sadly not the same skills. He makes even our olympic teams because he's ultra fast skating, acceleration and energic playing.

Kid Dynamite 01-03-2013 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QnebO (Post 57041017)
You've gotta be kidding, out of top 4 year after year? Haha:laugh: This is so not true other ways too. Finlands situation has just got better in last few years: "New players" that I really like are Granlund, Armia, Komarov, Ristolainen, Vatanen for example.. and there is more. Also Koivu, Ruutu, Korpikoski, Flppula agegroup aint that old (you mentioned Selanne agegroup).

Finland has definitely produced elite level talent in the last little while, and I don't think the OP is arguing against that. What I think he is getting at is that players such as Armia, Barkov and Granlund are not great skaters which is true. However as you mentioned, lesser known prospects such as Vatanen and Komarov are pretty good skaters.

It is a pretty shallow analysis, but I can see why the OP made the comment.

Edit: I see you all ready you all ready noted you misunderstood the question.

Nash 01-03-2013 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LSnow (Post 57041435)
While that Getzlaf thing was a joke, it is actually true. It's weird when 17-18 year old US teens look like they are in their mid 20's.

Even being from Canada, I am sometimes shocked at how much older US teens look. I'm talking outside of hockey. You also have some like Kane or Gaudreau that look thirteen too though.

Tiranis 01-03-2013 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jarome Iginla (Post 57041681)
Isn't Vrana supposedly a good skater?

I would say so, but that's just one guy. Most high-end prospects coming out of Czech Republic right now have the "skating is a weakness" tag applied to them. Nobody has been better than average, some are significantly worse. And it's not just speed, their lateral mobility is usually just as awful or even worse.

I think the prospects on the whole from Czech Republic and Finland are actually really good and there's some great gems in there, but I think it does hurt their junior teams (and in the future Olympics/WHC teams) if there's very few good skaters and the team as a whole is slower than the opposition.

The Zetterberg Era 01-03-2013 01:26 AM

They probably need to skate the river like Stevie Weeks, we all know that is how you get jump.:laugh:

Nash 01-03-2013 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedWings19405 (Post 57040221)
I think the Russians have plenty of speed, Yakupov although not connecting on any of his hopeful breakaways probably has the most explosive first step in the tournament. I also disagree that Hertl isn't a good skater, I thought he was fast everytime I watched him this tournament.

I do think if you listen to the stories on the American guys skating is a big part of what they think makes elite players. They all talk about power skating classes and coaches. That is something the American players and development people with USA hockey seem to stress. Of course they could use players that slow down every once in a while and don't just stay stuck in turbo mode.

Focussing on speed has been a boon to American development. But as you say, there is more to skating than speed in straight lines.

Sometimes I think North American development is too structured. There are lots of elements to focus on for development. Europeans tend to have better than average puck handling skills and body position/puck possession is drilled into them. Multi sport cross training is really important too. In Canada, we can be overly focussed on one sport. Gretzky himself will tell you he developed hand to eye coordination in baseball and he wouldn't have been so elusive to hit had he not learned how to roll off of hits in lacrosse.

Rumcajs 01-03-2013 01:31 AM

With the rise of the KHL in Slovakia, Ukraine, Latvia and Kazakhstan im sure better prospects will come along.

MessierII 01-03-2013 01:40 AM

Pretty sure there's more Czechs in the NHL than any European country.

smitty10 01-03-2013 01:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MessierII (Post 57042351)
Pretty sure there's more Czechs in the NHL than any European country.

Sweden has the most. Czech's are 2 or 3. Their numbers are going to drop a bit soon too. Only 5-10 Czech players are being drafted each year and it seems that the only free agent who's signed (undrafted) from Europe recently is Cervenka. I wouldn't be surprised if their numbers dropped to 30ish in the NHL in the next 5-7 years.

The Zetterberg Era 01-03-2013 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MessierII (Post 57042351)
Pretty sure there's more Czechs in the NHL than any European country.

The RFA's change some of the numbers as do guys in the minors, but currently eliteprospects shows Sweden as the third largest with a 5 player lead over the Czechs.

MessierII 01-03-2013 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smitty10 (Post 57042417)
Sweden has the most. Czech's are 2 or 3. Their numbers are going to drop a bit soon too. Only 5-10 Czech players are being drafted each year and it seems that the only free agent who's signed (undrafted) from Europe recently is Cervenka. I wouldn't be surprised if their numbers dropped to 30ish in the NHL in the next 5-7 years.

Yeah your right Czechs are 2nd to the swedes not too long ago the Czechs were number one but there's been a lot of young swedes entering the past few years.

PTmbp13 01-03-2013 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smitty10 (Post 57042417)
Sweden has the most. Czech's are 2 or 3. Their numbers are going to drop a bit soon too. Only 5-10 Czech players are being drafted each year and it seems that the only free agent who's signed (undrafted) from Europe recently is Cervenka. I wouldn't be surprised if their numbers dropped to 30ish in the NHL in the next 5-7 years.

It cant be! Swedens population is 10million, Its not even the main sport in Sweden so it has to be Russia or chechs.

NoShowWilly 01-03-2013 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedWings19405 (Post 57042025)
They probably need to skate the river like Stevie Weeks, we all know that is how you get jump.:laugh:

:handclap: was thinking of watching that the other day.

toewsintangibles 01-03-2013 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wings5 (Post 57033007)
This is what separates good from elite forwards and the reason why a country like Switzerland could hang with Russia was their speed. So, what's happening in these countries in regards to them producing poor skating players?

Switzerland won 1 out of 5 games this WJC and even that one was against Latvia


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