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-   -   Lockout VII: I've walked for miles, my feet are hurting (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1315817)

Hank Chinaski 01-04-2013 10:11 AM

Lockout VII: I've walked for miles, my feet are hurting
 
Continue here.

Link to previous thread.

mzappa 01-04-2013 10:12 AM

First!

There was hope for a deal about 48 hours ago, now......now I'm planning what to do with my season ticket refund money :shakehead

McLlwain 01-04-2013 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cbcwpg (Post 57093673)
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=412769

sources tell TSN that seven or eight unresolved issues remain, the three most meaningful ones being the second-year cap number, the length of player contacts and the players' pension.


Just 7 or 8 issues to hammer out..... And they are all going to be resolved in the next week? Just don't see it.

At this point, I think, both parties know exactly how far they would need to move on the remaining issues to cut a deal. There's no more time needed to sort things out. As of now they're both just trying until the very last moment to make the opposition move further.

BLONG7 01-04-2013 10:16 AM

It still seems to be alot of egos and posturing between the 2 big boys...sign a deal and fire both of them...:rant:

Wingsfan2965* 01-04-2013 10:22 AM

I think a lot of it is coming down to the PA wanting to use the disclaimer as a threat, while the league thinks that:

1. They don't have the balls to do it.

2. If they DO do it, it's going to seriously backfire on them.

rrasco 01-04-2013 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 (Post 57094053)
I think a lot of it is coming down to the PA wanting to use the disclaimer as a threat, while the league thinks that:

1. They don't have the balls to do it.

2. If they DO do it, it's going to seriously backfire on them.

Word was yesterday after the disclaimer threat went away, Bettman and the league went back to their old tricks, thus why the new vote was initiated, to put that threat back on the table. Of course, that just means it is a negotiating tactic, just like the lockout itself.

Conflicted Habs fan 01-04-2013 10:35 AM

Bettman reacted to the threat of "disclaimer of interest" last week by pretending to negotiate, only enough to use in courts to "prove" that he was actually negotiating, I think that lasted only a few days when they were going back and forth, however whenever the PA and NHL got close Bettman would either pull away or alter the conditions. Fehr caught on that a deal will not be closing, so the PA will file a disclaimer of interest. Its not a negotiating tact as many here are saying, it's for real, the PA are being pushed here by Bettman to settle this outside of the boardroom and into the courts.

haseoke39 01-04-2013 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conflicted Habs fan (Post 57094395)
Bettman reacted to the threat of "disclaimer of interest" last week by pretending to negotiate, only enough to use in courts to "prove" that he was actually negotiating, I think that lasted only a few days when they were going back and forth, however whenever the PA and NHL got close Bettman would either pull away or alter the conditions. Fehr caught on that a deal will not be closing, so the PA will file a disclaimer of interest. Its not a negotiating tact as many here are saying, it's for real, the PA are being pushed here by Bettman to settle this outside of the boardroom and into the courts.

The NHL could actually be doing a whole lot less and still be negotiating in the eyes of the courts. Courts aren't going to judge the substance of the offers. They're going to judge whether or not the NHL has participated in a process designed to bring the two sides together, regardless of which side moves. This is obviously the case.

People keep saying the NHL is not negotiating. But it's not true in a legal sense. Perhaps in your moral sense where you think their offers aren't morally okay for whatever reason.

cheswick 01-04-2013 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rrasco (Post 57094295)
Word was yesterday after the disclaimer threat went away, Bettman and the league went back to their old tricks, thus why the new vote was initiated, to put that threat back on the table. Of course, that just means it is a negotiating tactic, just like the lockout itself.

I personally find that whole notion absolutely ridiculous. Like the concept that they could disclaim interest makes the NHL bargain then they suddenly stop when its not an imminant possibility. It's not like the NHL was unaware they could just re-vote to put it back on the table. The whole disclaimer has zero effect on negotiations, until its actually followed through with, which would likely cost the season.

Coffe 01-04-2013 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rrasco (Post 57094295)
Word was yesterday after the disclaimer threat went away, Bettman and the league went back to their old tricks, thus why the new vote was initiated, to put that threat back on the table. Of course, that just means it is a negotiating tactic, just like the lockout itself.

I don't understand why they need another vote regarding a DOI as that isn't necessary for the PA in the first place, to show a united front towards the league?

cheswick 01-04-2013 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coffe (Post 57094675)
I don't understand why they need another vote regarding a DOI as that isn't necessary for the PA in the first place, to show a united front towards the league?

That's the whole position of the league in their court fillings. Its like asking your boss to fire you instead of quitting. Decertification would be like quitting, but its a long and complicated process. Instead the union disclaiming interest would be like the union "firing" the players, but the fact the players are voting on it just reeks of negotiating tactic. At least thats how one lawyer described it.

BoltSTH 01-04-2013 10:56 AM

If it goes to court can the mediators be called as witnesses? If so I would think their view of if who did, didn't do any negotiating in good faith would have a major impact on the ruling.

cbcwpg 01-04-2013 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoltSTH (Post 57094841)
If it goes to court can the mediators be called as witnesses? If so I would think their view of if who did, didn't do any negotiating in good faith would have a major impact on the ruling.

Speaking of the mediators...

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/...nald-fehr.html

The NHL and players’ union are meeting separately with a federal mediator on Friday but have no plans yet to negotiate.

Federal mediator Scot Beckenbaugh is talking with representatives from the NHL players' Association and league in an attempt to return the parties to the bargaining table after they spent most of Thursday apart.


No plans to talk or negotiate....

rrasco 01-04-2013 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheswick (Post 57094649)
I personally find that whole notion absolutely ridiculous. Like the concept that they could disclaim interest makes the NHL bargain then they suddenly stop when its not an imminant possibility. It's not like the NHL was unaware they could just re-vote to put it back on the table. The whole disclaimer has zero effect on negotiations, until its actually followed through with, which would likely cost the season.

It is ridiculous, but those are the reports that were coming out yesterday. I honestly don't have any clue what's going on with these fools, I just want hockey already.

MoreOrr 01-04-2013 11:30 AM

Can anyone doubt now what would've happened if Bettman and the owners hadn't locked out the Season until a deal was made? We should all now clearly know that negotiations wouldn't half as far along as they are, and by Playoff time if the owners didn't give Fehr what he wants, there would be a strike. Sure, the fans would've got their Season, But No Playoffs. The players would've been paid, by the cash cow of the Playoffs would've been lost. Fehr's tactics should be clear to all by now. And that Bettman and the owners are getting mighty fed up with it... Just not soon enough for my liking.

Ernie 01-04-2013 11:32 AM

To summarize the Winnipeg Free Press article, if a deal isn't done by Thursday, Bettman will scrap the season then demand much more than 50% revenue split.


Nice, more brinkmanship from the league. Because this has worked so well every other time. :shakehead

MoreOrr 01-04-2013 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ernie (Post 57095773)
To summarize the Winnipeg Free Press article, if a deal isn't done by Thursday, Bettman will scrap the season then demand much more than 50% revenue split.


Nice, more brinkmanship from the league. Because this has worked so well every other time. :shakehead

It hasn't worked because the owners have been spineless to get the Season started. It's such a limp dick method of negotiating, to say you won't concede further on a certain point and a few days or a week later you go right ahead and do the very thing you said you wouldn't do.

Undertakerqc 01-04-2013 11:36 AM

Bettman is the worst commish in NHL history. 3 lockout, 1 lost season, a secong in danger. I hope he gets booed out of the next building he hands out the cup, or at the next draft. The owners got everything they wanted in the last lockout. And now they got a bunch of concessions from the players. What a joke this lockout is.

CantHaveTkachev 01-04-2013 11:41 AM

one more week of this crap and we can all carry on with our lives

I expect an announced deal by Thursday BTW

Crease 01-04-2013 11:46 AM

Darn, I was hoping to be here for the 1000th post so I could set the new thread title to "Death Hills, starring G. Bettman and D. Fehr".

cbcwpg 01-04-2013 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoreOrr (Post 57095723)
Can anyone doubt now what would've happened if Bettman and the owners hadn't locked out the Season until a deal was made? We should all now clearly know that negotiations wouldn't half as far along as they are, and by Playoff time if the owners didn't give Fehr what he wants, there would be a strike. Sure, the fans would've got their Season, But No Playoffs. The players would've been paid, by the cash cow of the Playoffs would've been lost. Fehr's tactics should be clear to all by now. And that Bettman and the owners are getting mighty fed up with it... Just not soon enough for my liking.

Locking out the players was the only thing the NHL could have done. Doesn't matter if you agree with it or not, they had no choice. The NHL knew who they were going to be facing across the table and they had an idea what his tactics are.

If the NHL HAD agreed to play the season under the old CBA while trying to negotiate a new CBA, they wouldn't have even started talking at this point.

IMO if the NHL had said, fine lets play and negotiate, Fehr would have just told Bettman..." You know exactly what we are going to do just before the playoffs start, so let me know when you are ready to capitulate".

MNNumbers 01-04-2013 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoreOrr (Post 57095723)
Can anyone doubt now what would've happened if Bettman and the owners hadn't locked out the Season until a deal was made? We should all now clearly know that negotiations wouldn't half as far along as they are, and by Playoff time if the owners didn't give Fehr what he wants, there would be a strike. Sure, the fans would've got their Season, But No Playoffs. The players would've been paid, by the cash cow of the Playoffs would've been lost. Fehr's tactics should be clear to all by now. And that Bettman and the owners are getting mighty fed up with it... Just not soon enough for my liking.

More - I know that this is what Fehr did in MLB. I wonder, though, if that was a different situation. MLB players had no CBA right to playoff money. In this case, the players get their cut of playoff income, too. That lessens the leverage they have for a late season strike.

I rather think, that, as long as the players could play under the old CBA, that's what they would do. In other words, just keep dragging out and dragging out until the CBA expired totally. It's their best move, money wise.

KINGS17 01-04-2013 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rrasco (Post 57094295)
Word was yesterday after the disclaimer threat went away, Bettman and the league went back to their old tricks, thus why the new vote was initiated, to put that threat back on the table. Of course, that just means it is a negotiating tactic, just like the lockout itself.

Meh, they simply ripped a page from Fehr's playbook and moved the goal posts like he has many times.

Dado 01-04-2013 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoreOrr (Post 57095723)
The players would've been paid, by the cash cow of the Playoffs would've been lost.

It doesn't work that way in a linkage world. If playoff revenue goes *poof*, player revenue goes *poof*.

vanwest 01-04-2013 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patofqc (Post 57095867)
Bettman is the worst commish in NHL history. 3 lockout, 1 lost season, a secong in danger. I hope he gets booed out of the next building he hands out the cup, or at the next draft. The owners got everything they wanted in the last lockout. And now they got a bunch of concessions from the players. What a joke this lockout is.

I'd argue he's the worst commissioner in any sport not just the NHL. Fehr is his equivalent on the union side. The only positive out of all of this ia that with a 10 year CBA both of these clowns will be gone by the next time we face a new CBA.


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