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-   -   Rick Tocchet or Owen Nolan? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1316455)

Puckgenius* 01-05-2013 04:58 PM

Rick Tocchet or Owen Nolan?
 
Both hard nosed players in their primes, but Nolan had far less talent to play with throughout his career. His best centre was Vincent Damphousse while Tocchet had Lemieux. Nolan for a big man had one hell of a shot. Him beating Hasek in the All star game after calling for top corner is one of the memories of him that people will never forget. I dont remember how much of a leader Tocchet was but Nolan was one of the best vocal leaders in the room and lead by example on the ice. I didnt get to see Tocchet in his prime but I always saw him as an upgraded Keith Jones. Who was better?

Ohashi_Jouzu 01-05-2013 05:03 PM

I liked Nolan and all, but...

vadim sharifijanov 01-05-2013 05:31 PM

tocchet. playoffs.

Big Phil 01-05-2013 08:43 PM

Good comparison.

Tocchet you have to remember was still a very talented player on his own even before hitting the Pens. Had a 96 point year on a suspect Flyers team in 1990. Also played in a couple Canada Cups. Nolan played in the 2002 Olympics.

With Nolan you probably have the best season either man had (2000) but there was a huge drop off with his next best years. That season really just peaked out of nowhere. He also doesn't have a very good playoff record and was part of some teams that could have gone further but didn't. Such as the 1995 Nordiques. Or the 2003 Leafs. I know the Leafs lost to the Flyers, but Nolan was picked up late in 2003 for the very reason to help the Leafs with a deep playoff push and had 2 assists in that 7 game series. He also was so-so in the 2002 Olympics, at best.

Tocchet probably had his best year in 1993 with 109 points on that stacked Pens team. He had deeper playoff runs which he helped out a lot with, he won a Cup and he had more "good" regular seasons than Nolan.

Individually I think you feared Tocchet a bit more. He was meaner. He is one guy where you could say he wouldn't get beat in a fight, maybe not win, but not get throttled. He was stronger, more individually talented and had a bigger toolbox.

Nolan, for all he was worth never really hit the level you hoped he would, and in my opinion he falls short in a comparison against Tocchet.

Ogie Goldthorpe 01-05-2013 10:00 PM

Tocchet... top 5 power forward of all time. Nolan, top 20, maybe.

Better comparison would be Nolan vs. Tkachuk.

Big Phil 01-06-2013 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ogie Goldthorpe (Post 57156425)
Tocchet... top 5 power forward of all time. Nolan, top 20, maybe.

Better comparison would be Nolan vs. Tkachuk.

I hate to say this because I am not a big Tkachuk supporter, but you can easily make the argument that Tkachuk is the best one of the three mentioned. I am not sure why Nolan would fare better in a debate with Tkachuk as opposed to Tocchet

TheDevilMadeMe 01-06-2013 06:15 AM

Best seasons by adjusted points:

Nolan: 91, 85, 75, 67, 65, 64, 62, 61, 55, 53
Tocchet: 88*, 80, 67, 64, 63, 60, 57, 53, 52, 52

*Played on the same line as peak Mario Lemieux

Nolan was definitely the better offensive player.

Did Tocchet really bring that much more to the table

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Phil (Post 57163137)
I hate to say this because I am not a big Tkachuk supporter, but you can easily make the argument that Tkachuk is the best one of the three mentioned. I am not sure why Nolan would fare better in a debate with Tkachuk as opposed to Tocchet

Tkachuk > Nolan > Tocchet IMO. Tocchet was a great complementary piece, but teams were built around Tkachuk.

vadim sharifijanov 01-06-2013 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 57170361)
Best seasons by adjusted points:

Nolan: 91, 85, 75, 67, 65, 64, 62, 61, 55, 53
Tocchet: 88*, 80, 67, 64, 63, 60, 57, 53, 52, 52

*Played on the same line as peak Mario Lemieux

Nolan was definitely the better offensive player.

Did Tocchet really bring that much more to the table



Tkachuk > Nolan > Tocchet IMO. Tocchet was a great complementary piece, but teams were built around Tkachuk.

crappy underachieving teams were built around tkachuk (and, to a lesser degree, nolan). i get the distinction you're making: tocchet was not a franchise player, or even a true all-star. tkachuk and nolan were borderline franchise players.

but on the other hand, what if we think of tocchet as a really really really really rich man's scott hartnell? tocchet was a guy you went to war with, john tonelli intangibles with an enforcer's body. maybe he was a second tier power forward, behind kevin stevens, neely, shanahan, and some of his other contemporaries, but i don't know that you could take more talented guys like tkachuk and nolan and put them in tocchet's role and get the same results. and those results, i think, outweigh a career of mid-season all-star nods and first round knockouts.

Regal 01-06-2013 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 57170361)
Best seasons by adjusted points:

Nolan: 91, 85, 75, 67, 65, 64, 62, 61, 55, 53
Tocchet: 88*, 80, 67, 64, 63, 60, 57, 53, 52, 52

*Played on the same line as peak Mario Lemieux

Nolan was definitely the better offensive player.

Did Tocchet really bring that much more to the table



Tkachuk > Nolan > Tocchet IMO. Tocchet was a great complementary piece, but teams were built around Tkachuk.

I don't see how those totals show that there was really much separating them at all. They're actually eerily similar, except Nolan's one big season stands out if we downgrade Tocchet's Lemieux year. Keep in mind that adjusted stats tend to downgrade 80s players and benefit DPE players. If Nolan was a bit better offensively in the regular season I think you could make an argument that Tocchet's playoffs and the fact that I think he was just that much tougher/nastier/more feared put him over the top.

I agree about Tkachuk though, even if Vadim has a point about his playoffs and leading poor teams. He was just too far ahead offensively at his peak to not be above these two.

Darth Yoda 01-06-2013 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 57170361)
Best seasons by adjusted points:

Nolan: 91, 85, 75, 67, 65, 64, 62, 61, 55, 53
Tocchet: 88*, 80, 67, 64, 63, 60, 57, 53, 52, 52

*Played on the same line as peak Mario Lemieux

Nolan was definitely the better offensive player.

Did Tocchet really bring that much more to the table

Did'nt Tocchet miss quite a few games many of those years?

VanIslander 01-06-2013 09:21 AM

Good question.... I saw both play a lot... am not sure which was better...

Smelling Salt 01-06-2013 11:10 AM

I loved Tocchet. I would say him but I am biased.

48 goals
61 assists
109 points
252 PIM

Insane season in any era and with any line mates.

Anton13 01-06-2013 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Yoda (Post 57174867)
Did'nt Tocchet miss quite a few games many of those years?

He played 80 or more games only three times in his 18-year career.

Edit: Nolan also played 18 seasons and only once had 80 or more games.

TheDevilMadeMe 01-06-2013 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regal (Post 57171953)
I don't see how those totals show that there was really much separating them at all. They're actually eerily similar, except Nolan's one big season stands out if we downgrade Tocchet's Lemieux year. Keep in mind that adjusted stats tend to downgrade 80s players and benefit DPE players. If Nolan was a bit better offensively in the regular season I think you could make an argument that Tocchet's playoffs and the fact that I think he was just that much tougher/nastier/more feared put him over the top.

I agree about Tkachuk though, even if Vadim has a point about his playoffs and leading poor teams. He was just too far ahead offensively at his peak to not be above these two.

I think the numbers show a small but clear advantage for Nolan even before you look at the Mario Lemieux effect. Keep in mind that the late 80s adjusted numbers are tough on stars, but 1992-93 is about the easiest season in history to get adjusted points in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov (Post 57170977)
crappy underachieving teams were built around tkachuk (and, to a lesser degree, nolan). i get the distinction you're making: tocchet was not a franchise player, or even a true all-star. tkachuk and nolan were borderline franchise players.

but on the other hand, what if we think of tocchet as a really really really really rich man's scott hartnell? tocchet was a guy you went to war with, john tonelli intangibles with an enforcer's body. maybe he was a second tier power forward, behind kevin stevens, neely, shanahan, and some of his other contemporaries, but i don't know that you could take more talented guys like tkachuk and nolan and put them in tocchet's role and get the same results. and those results, i think, outweigh a career of mid-season all-star nods and first round knockouts.

Playoffs aside, Tkachuk was a legit superstar (multiple post-season All-Star nods, one of the highest paid players in the league). Teams gameplanned to stop him and were successful, but nobody bothered to do the same for Tocchet.

Nolan was a borderline superstar, I think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smelling Salt (Post 57180595)
I loved Tocchet. I would say him but I am biased.

48 goals
61 assists
109 points
252 PIM

Insane season in any era and with any line mates.

His linemate had 160 points in 60 games and easily won the Hart Trophy. It wasn't just "any linemate."

TheDevilMadeMe 01-06-2013 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Yoda (Post 57174867)
Did'nt Tocchet miss quite a few games many of those years?

Here it is per game

Tocchet:

952 points in 1144 games (.83)
892 adjusted points in 1144 games (.78)

112 points in 145 playoff games (.77)
32 points in 26 playoff games with Mario Lemieux (1.23)
80 points in 119 playoff games without Mario Lemieux (.67)

Nolan:

885 points in 1200 games (.74)
949 adjusted points in 1200 games (.79)

40 points in 65 playoff games (.62)

They are virtually identical in the regular season before you take a couple of seasons of Lemieux into account, and I think the difference in playoffs is entirely explained by Lemieux and era. I mean, Owen Nolan scored 8 goals in 10 playoff games in 2000. Is it his fault that Steve Shields put up a ..889 save percentage through 2 rounds?

vadim sharifijanov 01-06-2013 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 57190987)
Here it is per game

Tocchet:

952 points in 1144 games (.83)
892 adjusted points in 1144 games (.78)

112 points in 145 playoff games (.77)
32 points in 26 playoff games with Mario Lemieux (1.23)
80 points in 119 playoff games without Mario Lemieux (.67)

Nolan:

885 points in 1200 games (.74)
949 adjusted points in 1200 games (.79)

40 points in 65 playoff games (.62)

They are virtually identical in the regular season before you take a couple of seasons of Lemieux into account, and I think the difference in playoffs is entirely explained by Lemieux and era. I mean, Owen Nolan scored 8 goals in 10 playoff games in 2000. Is it his fault that Steve Shields put up a ..889 save percentage through 2 rounds?

2000 was his career year, and nolan's only good playoffs. maybe the sharks put up more of a fight against dallas in the second round had nolan not missed two games. if we're talking about a five year peak of that owen nolan, then i don't think we're entertaining a nolan vs. tocchet comparison.

but he was only that guy for one year. otherwise, he was generally a disappointing playoff performer. the stats may not show the separation between him and tocchet to be a stark as it was, but it was stark.

i think those per-game playoff stats are misleading. you have to remember that tocchet made the finals as a third liner as a rookie (20 years old), almost made the finals again as a 35 year old, and his team was in a complete scorched earth rebuild as he hit his peak years (after the '89 playoff run, until he was traded to pittsburgh). so if you also take out those two pittsburgh years, his playoff per-game averages exclude his entire peak and overrepresents two long runs that were clearly outside of his prime.

ultimately though, whatever the per-game playoff numbers (with or sans mario) tell us, tocchet has a well-earned reputation as a playoff warrior. he wasn't cam neely, but he was still a game-altering destructive force on the forecheck and he put up good points. as a rookie playing an energy role or as first liner with mario, he made a visible difference. whereas nolan played a first line role for most of his playoff career and in most of those years no matter how many points he got (and it usually wasn't very many), we remember him being disappointing. we remember wishing he had more of tocchet's fight and timely production in him.

now we know tocchet couldn't do nolan's job as well as nolan did it. scorched earth or not post-'89, it was pretty clear that a team with tocchet leading the offense was not a competitive team. but neither could nolan do tocchet's job, assuming that we remember tocchet primarily as a first/second line tweener power forward. that was nolan's role on the leafs at age 30, and he disappointed mightily. at 35, on the '00 flyers, tocchet was still getting it done.

which gets me back to my original point: is a career of mid-season all-star nods and first round exits in a starring role more valuable than a career of deep runs in a secondary role? rick vaive or john tonelli?

Big Phil 01-06-2013 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 57170361)
Tkachuk > Nolan > Tocchet IMO. Tocchet was a great complementary piece, but teams were built around Tkachuk.

I agree teams were built around Tkachuk (even though he wasn't much of a leader). No argument Tkachuk is #1 out of those three, but what did Nolan do in his career better than Tocchet? I think anyone is going to be a complementary player with Mario Lemieux on their team. Tocchet had a couple seasons where he was the best Flyer on his team. Either way, I don't think you win if Nolan or Tocchet are your best players. I just don't see the reason Nolan would be ahead of Tocchet.

TheDevilMadeMe 01-06-2013 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Phil (Post 57200505)
I agree teams were built around Tkachuk (even though he wasn't much of a leader). No argument Tkachuk is #1 out of those three, but what did Nolan do in his career better than Tocchet? I think anyone is going to be a complementary player with Mario Lemieux on their team. Tocchet had a couple seasons where he was the best Flyer on his team. Either way, I don't think you win if Nolan or Tocchet are your best players. I just don't see the reason Nolan would be ahead of Tocchet.

Nolan put up points better than Tocchet, by what I think is a small but clear margin. Was Tocchet's ability to intimidate and win puck battles better enough than Nolan to make up the gap?

It wasn't just Mario Lemieux, Tocchet was the 4th or 5th best forward on the Penguins when he won the Cup - behind Lemieux, Francis, Stevens, and possibly a young Jagr.

Tocchet was the best player on the 1989-90 Flyers (largely because Mark Howe missed half the season), but that team didn't make the playoffs: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1317089

Ohashi_Jouzu 01-06-2013 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Phil (Post 57200505)
I agree teams were built around Tkachuk (even though he wasn't much of a leader). No argument Tkachuk is #1 out of those three, but what did Nolan do in his career better than Tocchet? I think anyone is going to be a complementary player with Mario Lemieux on their team. Tocchet had a couple seasons where he was the best Flyer on his team. Either way, I don't think you win if Nolan or Tocchet are your best players. I just don't see the reason Nolan would be ahead of Tocchet.

Me neither, and that's from a Habs fan with closet Nordique loyalties as a former Citadels' season ticket holder. Maybe lots of creative points counting/"measuring" of offense, with Nolan getting a LOT more miles from his PP goals/points planting his butt in front of a Sakic/Sundin/Forsberg powerplay than any stretch of "Lemieux effect" Tocchet may have enjoyed, a blip of a rebound high in '99/00, and not enough focus on just how one-dimensional he was compared to Tocchet anyway.

TheDevilMadeMe 01-06-2013 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu (Post 57201705)
Me neither, and that's from a Habs fan with closet Nordique loyalties as a former Citadels' season ticket holder. Maybe lots of creative points counting/"measuring" of offense, with Nolan getting a LOT more miles from his PP goals/points planting his butt in front of a Sakic/Sundin/Forsberg powerplay than any stretch of "Lemieux effect" Tocchet may have enjoyed, a blip of a rebound high in '99/00, and not enough focus on just how one-dimensional he was compared to Tocchet anyway.

1) Recognizing that Tocchet's best seasons were in a significantly higher scoring era than Nolan's is "creative 'measuring'?" Are you serious?

2) It's quite possible I did underrate the effect of Sakic and Forsberg on Nolan. His second best season was 1994-95 playing with them, though that's nothing like Lemieux. Nolan wasnt really in his prime when he played with Sundin, I don't think.

3) What makes Nolan "one-dimensional" compared to Tocchet? Tocchet was a much better fighter, that's for sure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov (Post 57195957)
now we know tocchet couldn't do nolan's job as well as nolan did it. scorched earth or not post-'89, it was pretty clear that a team with tocchet leading the offense was not a competitive team. but neither could nolan do tocchet's job, assuming that we remember tocchet primarily as a first/second line tweener power forward. that was nolan's role on the leafs at age 30, and he disappointed mightily. at 35, on the '00 flyers, tocchet was still getting it done.

Tocchet certainly aged better than Nolan

Ziggy Stardust 01-06-2013 05:31 PM

Tocchet by far. He was a hell of a fighter, willing to take on anyone in any weight class, willed his way to the net and the scars on his face were a mark for his combative style of play. Owen Nolan was a hard nosed power forward and a damn good player in his own right, but I view Tocchet as a more intimidating player. He could hurt you with his fists or with his play. His mounting injuries can all be attributed to his play, and he was a player who was constantly playing hurt.

Hardyvan123 01-06-2013 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ogie Goldthorpe (Post 57156425)
Tocchet... top 5 power forward of all time. Nolan, top 20, maybe.

Better comparison would be Nolan vs. Tkachuk.

Tkachuk and Tocchet are really close IMO, not sure which guy I would rather have, people talk about Nolan having worse linemates than Tocchet, well Tkachuk says hello.

Tkachuk actually has in 57 more games 98 more goals than Tocchet in counting stats.

Adjusted it's 585-475 for Keith.

Tkachuk4MVP 01-06-2013 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 57202299)
Tocchet certainly aged better than Nolan


Definitely. I'd say Nolan at his peak was better than Tocchet at his peak, but Rick was a solid player right up to the end of his career.

vadim sharifijanov 01-06-2013 06:08 PM

would it be fair to say that 2000 nolan (regular season only) was peak tkachuk-level, but tkachuk was able to sustain it over four seasons whereas it was a blip for nolan?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 57202299)
3) What makes Nolan "one-dimensional" compared to Tocchet? Tocchet was a much better fighter, that's for sure.

i certainly wouldn't call nolan one-dimensional, but tocchet was certainly the superior playmaker.

one thing though, nolan has a lot of SH goals. but i remember him being below average defensively. am i remembering wrong?

tocchet was no selke guy, but he had definitely had a more than capable two-way game.

Tkachuk4MVP 01-06-2013 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov (Post 57206385)
would it be fair to say that 2000 nolan (regular season only) was peak tkachuk-level, but tkachuk was able to sustain it over four seasons whereas it was a blip for nolan?



i certainly wouldn't call nolan one-dimensional, but tocchet was certainly the superior playmaker.

one thing though, nolan has a lot of SH goals. but i remember him being below average defensively. am i remembering wrong?

tocchet was no selke guy, but he had definitely had a more than capable two-way game.


Nolan got a lot of PK time, but that may have been the result of him being one of the Sharks' few offensive threats for a couple of seasons and the fact that he could hit like a freight train. I don't remember him being that good defensively.


And I also don't think Nolan's peak ever matched Tkachuk's.


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