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-   -   Is the ability to stay healthy a skill? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1318689)

Chalupa Batman 01-08-2013 01:22 PM

Is the ability to stay healthy a skill?
 
I claim that the ability to stay healthy and on the ice is a skill, just as much as shooting the puck, passing the puck, or stopping the puck. Moreover, certain players have shown a consistent ability to play, while others have shown the opposite.

Am I off base here? This is related to some "on pace" arguments in the main NHL board.

SmellOfVictory 01-08-2013 01:34 PM

I kind of agree, but it's what I'd consider a fairly weak attribute in comparison to the other ones. It gives a player the ability to contribute more over the long term, but it's unlikely to affect an individual game's outcome, while the other attributes affect both (strength, speed, individual skills, etc). For the most part it seems to be recognized that "on pace" is less valuable than hitting an actual season's worth of production (or close to it), so I think physiological sturdiness is fairly well accounted for as it is.

Czech Your Math 01-08-2013 01:37 PM

There is some skill involved. There's also skill in playing through injury and being an effective and productive player.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instanc...x/32199837.jpg

Mike Farkas 01-08-2013 02:33 PM

At a passing glance, my issue would come with the word "skill" - which might end up making it a semantic argument on my end. But the connotation of the word "skill" to me is something that is learned and crafted over time. I wouldn't necessarily call staying healthy a "skill" per se. Condition, trait, characteristic, I don't know the right word. But I don't feel if "skill" is the correct framework given the other things that are confidently defined as "skills", in my opinion.

steveott 01-08-2013 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur (Post 57293631)
I claim that the ability to stay healthy and on the ice is a skill .

you can say that durability is kinda attribute like vision or speed. some guys are just made of glass. sometimes its just a bad luck.

OTOH its everybody's choice how much you want use roids come playoff time (when testing is not allowed). this is the very reason i always prefer regular season and longevity. (and international games EXCEPT canada cups)

what exactly is a "prime time player"??

Czech Your Math 01-08-2013 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Farkas (Post 57297161)
At a passing glance, my issue would come with the word "skill" - which might end up making it a semantic argument on my end. But the connotation of the word "skill" to me is something that is learned and crafted over time. I wouldn't necessarily call staying healthy a "skill" per se. Condition, trait, characteristic, I don't know the right word. But I don't feel if "skill" is the correct framework given the other things that are confidently defined as "skills", in my opinion.

I would guess some of it is innate constitution/durability... some of it is learned (how to avoid hits, how to actually pace oneself for a full season, etc.)... some of it is the will to play through injuries when possible... and some of it is pure luck.

Canadiens1958 01-08-2013 03:07 PM

Skills
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur (Post 57293631)
I claim that the ability to stay healthy and on the ice is a skill, just as much as shooting the puck, passing the puck, or stopping the puck. Moreover, certain players have shown a consistent ability to play, while others have shown the opposite.

Am I off base here? This is related to some "on pace" arguments in the main NHL board.

Used to be a teachable skill based on skating technique, body positioning, ice awareness, reading the flow and other factors. The same factors that enhance shooting, passing and stopping the puck.

Citing two examples - Doug Jarvis, smallish with excellent body positioning and Benoit Brunet, 6'0" but with awkward body positioning going to the net and to the boards. Jarvis set Ironman records while Brunet never came close to playing a full season in the NHL.

Since the introduction of synthetics and hard plastics to equipment this has changed. The original purpose of equipment - protecting a player has changed to include punishing the opposition. So there is a trade-off between proper technique, protecting vulnerability and consequences.

TAnnala 01-08-2013 03:30 PM

I would say that staying healthy is a combination of skill, natural talent/build of body and luck.

Some guys have bad luck, but guys like Forsberg and Lindros should get some negatives about being out of the game. The "on pace" argument is weakest on players like them, cause the playing style basically caused them miss the games.

They might have been able to play whole seasons with the cost of effectiveness. So it would have evened out in the end. IMO.

MrJonas 01-08-2013 03:43 PM

The ability to stay healthy is a trait. A skill is something you execute.

RandV 01-08-2013 04:15 PM

Just look at Patrick Kane surviving in the league as a scrawny teenager.

wgknestrick 01-08-2013 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TAnnala (Post 57300309)
I would say that staying healthy is a combination of skill, natural talent/build of body and luck.

And HGH:sarcasm:

livewell68 01-08-2013 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TAnnala (Post 57300309)
I would say that staying healthy is a combination of skill, natural talent/build of body and luck.

Some guys have bad luck, but guys like Forsberg and Lindros should get some negatives about being out of the game. The "on pace" argument is weakest on players like them, cause the playing style basically caused them miss the games.

They might have been able to play whole seasons with the cost of effectiveness. So it would have evened out in the end. IMO.

Same applies to Crosby.

LeBlondeDemon10 01-08-2013 06:28 PM

I think it used to be a skill. In today's game everyone hits and everyone is a target, never mind the cheap shots. With no more enforcers in the league, everyone is fair game. Not so many years ago, many players did not train in the off season and would use camp to get into shape. Today's players do much more than just skating to build and maintain their bodies; its almost a given that you show up for camp in top condition and have worked on certain weaknesses in the off-season. Also, a tremendous amount of luck is involved. The shot that Crosby took from Steckel was cheap yet somewhat preventable. But a player cannot always be 100 % ready for every hit. Today's equipment appears to be causing a lot more injuries (if Steckel is wearing an older version of elbow or shoulder pads, isCrosby's injury as serious?) But I do not know what man games missed looked like 30 years ago compared to today. My guess is that its much higher today. However, take Lemieux. His getting cancer was not a hockey related injury, but were his back problems? Was he not taking training seriously enough or was there a more complex problem with his back?

Killion 01-08-2013 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrJonas (Post 57301057)
The ability to stay healthy is a trait. A skill is something you execute.

Ya, I think thats very well put. Its both an innate & learned trait, psychological, issues that have much to do with preparedness & conditioning, rest, nutrition. Due to the nature of the game however the potential for injury can only be ameliorated so much, never completely removed, and as C58 illustrates above, hockey skill sets combined with equipment factors into the equation considerably. Temperament, any propensities towards recklessness, genealogical & physiological constructs, dumb luck, all these things & more take it far from the realms of just "skill set" alone I believe.

Richie10 01-08-2013 06:40 PM

I wouldn't necessarily call it a "skill" but it is definitely an attribute in any professional athlete worthy of praise. Hell, Gordie Howe himself built an entire HOF career on not only his skill (which was formidable) but his almost inhuman durability.

Look at all the greats across all sports. For the most part, they all enjoyed long, relatively injury free careers. There's something to be said of any athlete's ability to avoid major injury.

almostawake 01-08-2013 09:15 PM

Off the top of my head I see at least four contributing factors to a player staying healthy.

1) How recklessly they play the game. Beyond just how physical they are, I also think of this in terms of how often a player takes risks by going to the front of the net, or holding on to the puck a second too long to open up a passing lane, or continuing to accelerate through the neutral zone despite the fact they've bobbled the puck and have their head down, etc.

I think Lindros is a classic example of a guy that was very reckless, on both counts. When he was the hammer he was often throwing his body around with little attention paid to exactly how he was making contact. And on the other side it was the nail far too often because he either didn't care to ease off when he had his head down, or never learnt how at the lower levels because his opposition was never really large enough to actually hurt him.

I think in today's NHL there's a lot of bangers that are good examples, Tanner Glass, Colin Fraser, Jared Boll. Guys that know that they're not in the NHL if they're not being somewhat reckless with their bodies. On the other side I think guys like David Krejci and Ales Hemsky are good examples of guys that are reckless by just how often they misanticipate a play or hang onto the puck too long.

2) How good a player is at deterring the opposition from playing recklessly (or dirty) against them. Never saw Gordie Howe play, but by all accounts he was a master at this. You may catch him with is head down occasionally, or have an opportunity to really stick it to him but you knew you'd better knock him out of the game or he was going to do a lot worse to you later.

A player that I have seen play that I'd put in this group is Mark Messier. Mess was forever the guy that would bring a knife to a fist fight and then grab a gun after you found a knife. There wasn't really anything that you could do to him that he could figure out a way to do 10 times worse to you in return.

Today there's some that get a bit of extra space and respect, but you can get away with the shear violence you used to. I will say it isn't very often you see someone take a really run at Chara though.

The last to are pretty self explanatory.

3) Ability to heal quickly. I think in this case it has a lot to do with just how focused a player is on the fact that hockey is their job. How well they can stay on a diet, how strictly they follow their recovery exercise regimen, stuff like that.

4) Ability to withstand pain.

Porn* 01-08-2013 09:55 PM

many factors...

genetics
style of play
health
nutrition
luck
misc.

LeBlondeDemon10 01-08-2013 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killion (Post 57308833)
Ya, I think thats very well put. Its both an innate & learned trait, psychological, issues that have much to do with preparedness & conditioning, rest, nutrition. Due to the nature of the game however the potential for injury can only be ameliorated so much, never completely removed, and as C58 illustrates above, hockey skill sets combined with equipment factors into the equation considerably. Temperament, any propensities towards recklessness, genealogical & physiological constructs, dumb luck, all these things & more take it far from the realms of just "skill set" alone I believe.

A trait is genetic. It cannot be learned. A behavior is learned. And you really can't change your traits. You can train your physical gifts up to 30%. Therefore, the ability to stay healthy is as much a behavioral factor is it is genetic, but they are not one in the same.

Canadiens1958 01-09-2013 05:20 AM

Trent McCleary
 
From January, 20, 2000. Trent McCleary's near fatal injury:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMpC0qWKGlg

Note if he uses proper technique when trying to block the shot - head to the boards/skates to the middle of the ice, Trent McCleary does not get hurt.

Basic shot blocking skill learned by Pee Wee at the latest.

Acallabeth 01-09-2013 06:51 AM

Whatever doesn't fully depend on a player's ability is not a skill IMO.

VanIslander 01-09-2013 11:04 AM

Avoiding risky situations to the detriment of opportunities to help one's team.... yeah it's a skill. :p:

I prefer the Tony Granato, Zigmund Palffy, Petr Forsberg and Ian Laperierre types who exhibited balls-to-the-wall style that displayed grit, determination, sacrifice and in-the-moment total commitment to the play at hand. :yo: Warriors often go down in battle. But man, do they do it in style!

Czech Your Math 01-09-2013 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VanIslander (Post 57334925)
Avoiding risky situations to the detriment of opportunities to help one's team.... yeah it's a skill. :p:

Except that being able to play more games is an opportunity to help one's team. There are players who avoid risky situations and still get injured... and those that don't avoid them (although may not seek them out) and remain relatively healthy.

Harry Waters 01-09-2013 01:15 PM

I'd say it depends, if that does make any sense.

There are different reasons to get injured: if you ruin your ligaments in your knee just skating and stopping, there is not much that you can do, some people just have bad luck. Best example here might be DiPietro a few years ago - he didn't do different things than most goaltenders, he just got injured by saving pucks (now shouldn't count, you can argue that at some point one should understand when it is enough).

Another way to get hurt is putting yourself at risk in a game situation you could have avoided. Lindros comes to mind, and Taylor Hall could be a case for that category too, although he didn't get his injuries by getting hit; but if he continues to play that reckless, he will get caught again by someone like Kronwall and may get injured. If people can fill a highlight reel of hits just with hits on one player, I think that might be a case of lacking a 'skill', namely the one to keep your head up.

There sure is a reason why there are not many highlights showing Datsyuk getting crushed at center ice.

daver 01-09-2013 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by livewell68 (Post 57307321)
Same applies to Crosby.

How so? Bad luck or a cheap shot seem to be more of a factor than his playing style. His PPG wouldn't decrease if that's what you are driving at.

Plante 01-09-2013 03:40 PM

Tying your laces is more of a skill than staying healthy.


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