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-   -   2013 NHL "Around the League" Talk - Pt 1 (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1319309)

Darth Vitale 01-09-2013 11:35 AM

2013 NHL "Around the League" Talk - Pt 1
 
Ouch. No sooner does the league start revving its engines than the Leafs can Burke as GM.

Anyone think this means trades more likely? Maybe you Kuly groupies will get your wish. Anyway, I kind of like having Burke around. The world is so full of people who sugar-coat and smooth-talk... it's good to have the occasional leader who just doesn't give a crap what people think, and speaks their mind. For that reason I can sometimes tolerate torts as well. Especially when he's abusing Larry Brooks or other dumbass reporters asking stupid questions. (Despite what your teachers said in HS, there really IS such a thing as a stupid question...) ;)

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=413146

Crafton 01-09-2013 11:37 AM

i knew i was looking in vain for this thread.

i'm hoping it was some kind of nefarious sex scandal. why do you think his tie is always undid? :sarcasm:

Big McLargehuge 01-09-2013 11:38 AM

I can only imagine the trade that Burke had ironed out that required ownership coming in and just firing the guy.

Morgan Rielly, our next 3 first rounders, and Tyler Bozak for Roberto Luongo...hey, we got the best player in the deal right now, therefore we won the trade!

Darth Vitale 01-09-2013 11:45 AM

:laugh:

That would've been pretty funny. Fear the Kessel - Luongo connection!

I suspect though they planned to do this as season approached and just waited till the lockout was over / waited until they knew they had to make a change now. He was probably still getting paid during the lockout one assumes, it's actually better for Burke that they waited, financially. I think. AFAIK GM contracts don't get bought out / paid after you get canned?

Koempel 01-09-2013 11:46 AM

Wow did not see this one coming. Something out of the ordinary must have happened, can't see them waiting all lockout to can the guy as soon as it is over.

vikingGoalie 01-09-2013 11:49 AM

pretty easy choice, hockey mad toronto is the only team since the previous lockout to not go to the playoffs. ouch.

how long until the coach gets the axe as well?

Darth Vitale 01-09-2013 11:49 AM

Maybe after FA they asked him to "come up with some options" for trades, and when the lockout happened it all got put on hold... and when it was over they started talking about it again and they felt his philosophy was all wrong.

Problem with a place like TOR, you can bet everyone high up in the organization has opinions on players and problems and you get the too many chiefs situation.

Big McLargehuge 01-09-2013 11:50 AM

While the timing of it is...confusing...I don't necessarily think it was the wrong move.

Burke has been all hype, no substance for a long time. I honestly think he's one of the worst GMs in the game at this point in time. Plus it always bothered me that he got all the credit for that Anaheim Cup when the meat of that roster was acquired by Bryan Murray.


Plus the dude canned Brass Bonanza. He should never be forgiven for that.

Darth Vitale 01-09-2013 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big McLargehuge (Post 57338263)
While the timing of it is...confusing...I don't necessarily think it was the wrong move.

Burke has been all hype, no substance for a long time. I honestly think he's one of the worst GMs in the game at this point in time. Plus it always bothered me that he got all the credit for that Anaheim Cup when the meat of that roster was acquired by Bryan Murray.


Plus the dude canned Brass Bonanza. He should never be forgiven for that.


Yah but he had a big hand in shaping Vancouver's roster, don't forget that part. They've been competitive for a long time.

Blackhawkswincup 01-09-2013 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big McLargehuge (Post 57338263)
While the timing of it is...confusing...I don't necessarily think it was the wrong move.

Burke has been all hype, no substance for a long time. I honestly think he's one of the worst GMs in the game at this point in time. Plus it always bothered me that he got all the credit for that Anaheim Cup when the meat of that roster was acquired by Bryan Murray.


Plus the dude canned Brass Bonanza. He should never be forgiven for that.

I agree the firing is not issue (I would have fired him at conclusion of last season)

But the timing is the curious part

Why fire a guy now? Especially considering he was left in charge of 2012 draft

Most teams want to start over with new GM at draft table

Flat Stanley 01-09-2013 12:00 PM


Big McLargehuge 01-09-2013 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale (Post 57338439)
Yah but he had a big hand in shaping Vancouver's roster, don't forget that part. They've been competitive for a long time.

And they've been to exactly one Stanley Cup Finals - 6 years after Burke left - to show for it. His Philly-like refusal to get a real goalie in Vancouver ruined everything, and in Toronto it was an endless parade of trying to find the next hidden gem, but only getting polished turds.

And, again, for as much credit as Burke gets for turning that team around (which he did have a major hand in doing), the two best players on Burke's Vancouver teams were hand-me-downs from Pat Quinn (the Naslund & Bertuzzi trades were Pat Quinn moves).

mpp9 01-09-2013 12:03 PM

Burke's mantra was win now and making trades to make it happen versus rebuild. Maybe they're more willing to move players for picks now.

Darth Vitale 01-09-2013 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big McLargehuge (Post 57339219)
And they've been to exactly one Stanley Cup Finals - 6 years after Burke left - to show for it. His Philly-like refusal to get a real goalie in Vancouver ruined everything, and in Toronto it was an endless parade of trying to find the next hidden gem, but only getting polished turds.

And, again, for as much credit as Burke gets for turning that team around (which he did have a major hand in doing), the two best players on Burke's Vancouver teams were hand-me-downs from Pat Quinn (the Naslund & Bertuzzi trades were Pat Quinn moves).

That's a little unfair. Most teams haven't been to more than 1 Stanley Cup final in the last 10 years let alone 6, so unless you're prepared to say their GMs suck too. Bottom line is they're competitive and in the playoffs every year. That counts for something / points to the depth in their system.

The Sedins were the best players there; they just hadn't developed yet / were still young. That was a pretty bad-ass team he had top to bottom. I think he was the one responsible for drafting guys like Edler, Kesler, and Bieksa as well, and he found Burrows (he was roller hockey man, right?) too if I remember right. Not saying he's a GM God or anything, but he's not a bum either.

Captain Hook 01-09-2013 12:09 PM

The timing is really odd. I'm thinking Burke must have had a plan coming out of the lockout that the rest of the organization especially ownership was not on board with and thus things finally reached a breaking point where they are going their separate ways.

Were teams allowed to fire coaches during the lockout? Maybe that's part of the reason for the odd timing.

Mr Jiggyfly 01-09-2013 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big McLargehuge (Post 57337145)
I can only imagine the trade that Burke had ironed out that required ownership coming in and just firing the guy.

Morgan Rielly, our next 3 first rounders, and Tyler Bozak for Roberto Luongo...hey, we got the best player in the deal right now, therefore we won the trade!

My guess is he didn't want to trade for Lou.... MLSE is under tremendous pressure to win now and saw Lou as part of the equation back to the playoffs.

wgknestrick 01-09-2013 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mpp9 (Post 57339417)
Burke's mantra was win now and making trades to make it happen versus rebuild. Maybe they're more willing to move players for picks now.

They don't have a ton of players of value / their cap hit IMO. Maybe a couple, but they probably wan't to hold onto those guys. They are a bad team because of the players they are willing to let go.

MacAurthur is about the only player I'd consider along with Kulemin (who isn't near as good as most of you seem to think). Neither of these guys are much of an upgrade over TK, if at all. They would allow us to drop our worst forward though and give more comp for that top 6 spot. 3rd line would be rock solid.

I'd rather keep our picks and deal a prospect who we have doubts about (Depres/ Morrow). Now trading MAF on the other hand may make a ton of sense for both sides.

Big McLargehuge 01-09-2013 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale (Post 57339853)
That's a little unfair. Most teams haven't been to more than 1 Stanley Cup final in the last 10 years let alone 6, so unless you're prepared to say their GMs suck too. Bottom line is they're competitive and in the playoffs every year. That counts for something / points to the depth in their system.

The Sedins were the best players there; they just hadn't developed yet / were still young. That was a pretty bad-ass team he had top to bottom. I think he was the one responsible for drafting guys like Edler, Kesler, and Bieksa as well, and he found Burrows (he was roller hockey man, right?) too if I remember right. Not saying he's a GM God or anything, but he's not a bum either.

I feel the huge need to shout this fact from the rooftops right now.

Out of Brian Burke's 14 seasons as a General Manager in the NHL his teams have won a combined total of 6 playoff series...5 of which with an inherited roster in Anaheim.

For a guy who's standing in the hockey community is so high you'd think his track record would involve more than 2 solid playoff runs, especially for a guy who's known as the epitome of a win now/rebuilds are for suckers guy.

Darth Vitale 01-09-2013 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big McLargehuge (Post 57340989)
I feel the huge need to shout this fact from the rooftops right now.

Out of Brian Burke's 14 seasons as a General Manager in the NHL his teams have won a combined total of 6 playoff series...5 of which with an inherited roster in Anaheim.

So wait a minute... because Naslund and Bert are gone from Van (along with Burke) and a few players he [neither drafted nor traded for] are on the roster the last few years, the playoff wins year before last and so on don't count? They went to the Finals two years ago, remember? Takes more than 1 non-Anaheim series win to get to the Finals doesn't it? And the years before... didn't they beat Chicago a couple times? Those must count?

Sedin 1, Sedin 2, Kesler, Burrows, Edler, Bieksa, Salo et al... they were a part of those series right? Or did the other non-Burke players win the series single-handedly? :sarcasm:

Common man, I agree he's overrated but you're going over-board in your criticism of him.

Big McLargehuge 01-09-2013 12:34 PM

You give GMs more credit for draft picks than I do, I lay that almost entirely on the scouts. I'll give him credit for having the balls to make the trade to guarantee that they got both Sedins, though.

I'm not saying he's worthless, though I do believe his strategy is outdated and an abject failure in today's NHL, but I believe he's a shameless self-promoter who's reputation as a 'great GM' is thanks only to his large mouth and 'reviving' a Canadian team (though the resuscitation of the Canadian dollar gets lost in the big picture here...Vancouver was losing in the 90s because they were too poor to ice a NHL quality team, but hey Pat Quinn was still able to assemble a team that made it to the Finals in that environment).

That and Burke deserves literally zero credit for Alexandre Burrows - who was an ECHL player on an AHL contract in Burke's last season in Vancouver. Craig Heisinger, Manitoba's GM at the time, was the guy that scouted and signed him.

You'd just suspect that a GM who apparently was so great would have had some playoff success with the team he worked for the longest. If the Penguins bowed out in the first round every year there's no doubt this entire board would be calling for Shero's head.

Darth Vitale 01-09-2013 12:37 PM

Again I don't think he's great but I don't think he's a dog pile either. I agree has a big mouth, and sometimes he sticks his foot in it like Torts. Just think it's entertaining sometimes to listen to him while all the other GMs talk like news anchors. ;)

Thanks for clarifying on Burrows; I wasn't sure who found him since his route was sort of non-traditional if I remember right.

Draft picks-wise... I view that as about 33% of what makes a GM good. Ultimately he has to make the decision, he has to manage the scouts, etc. So while he can't take all the credit for good players found in the draft, he has to get some of it. Most good GMs are aware of a prospect's strengths and weaknesses, has watched video of said prospects, etc. Another 33% is managing the roster with trades, FA, and being cap healthy, and the final 34% is dealing with coaching and system issues.

Big McLargehuge 01-09-2013 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale (Post 57342457)
Again I don't think he's great but I don't think he's a dog pile either. Thanks for clarifying on Burrows; I wasn't sure who found him since his route was sort of non-traditional if I remember right.

Draft picks-wise... I view that as about 33% of what makes a GM good. Ultimately he has to make the decision, he has to manage the scouts, etc. So while he can't take all the credit for good players found in the draft, he has to get some of it. Most good GMs are aware of a prospect's strengths and weaknesses, has watched video of said prospects, etc. Another 33% is managing the roster with trades, FA, and being cap healthy, and the final 34% is dealing with coaching and system issues.

See I put the vast majority of weight on roster control, with the biggest portions being trades and free agency. Coaching is probably about 25% of it for me, and then probably about 15-20% on the draft.

In the first round every GM has veto power and they're going to be familiar with the vast majority of top prospects...but they still generally take the scout's suggestions and make moves like that. Past the first round it's almost entirely the scout's jobs. I mean, Chuck Grillo is why we had that nice Minnesota pipeline for a while, not Patrick or Shero. The reason why I give the GM any real credit here is because they're the ones that hire the scouts.

MrBurgundy* 01-09-2013 12:51 PM

Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun
Burke kept on as senior advisor. My guess that would have meant a lot to Nonis before accepting the GM job.

Bob McKenzie ‏@TSNBobMcKenzie
Nonis appointment as GM and senior VP is not interim.

Sidney the Kidney 01-09-2013 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koempel (Post 57337903)
Wow did not see this one coming. Something out of the ordinary must have happened, can't see them waiting all lockout to can the guy as soon as it is over.

I thought the timing was kind of weird as well. Weird time to suddenly have to bring in a new GM. If they didn't like the job he was doing, he should have been fired at the end of last season so the new GM had all summer (plus obviously the fall/winter due to the lockout) to make some roster decisions.

Captain Hook 01-09-2013 12:54 PM

Got a kick out of the little twitter war yesterday between the Cowboys and Stars. :laugh:

http://i.imgur.com/PXvOI.jpg


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