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-   -   Proposal: Subban to DET (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1322231)

zombi 01-13-2013 10:07 AM

Subban to DET
 
:habs

Filppula
Nyquist
Jurco
Ouellet
2nd 2013

:wings

Subban

Habsawce 01-13-2013 10:15 AM

Start with Brandon Smith and add, for me.

ChuckyToGally 01-13-2013 10:16 AM

Subban won't be traded, confirmed by Bergevin today.

You can put all the proposals to a rest.

radekas 01-13-2013 10:23 AM

I would never give that much for Subban.

solo16 01-13-2013 10:28 AM

Too much from detroit. At a bare minimum you would have to drop Ouellete and maybe the second. Filppula is a decent asset and Nyquist is arguably our best prospect. His value is not so far behind the aforementioned Smith.

glenbuis 01-13-2013 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solo16 (Post 57521069)
Too much from detroit. At a bare minimum you would have to drop Ouellete and maybe the second. Filppula is a decent asset and Nyquist is arguably our best prospect. His value is not so far behind the aforementioned Smith.

I don't think Montreal has any interest in the package that was there to start.

LBC Vapo* 01-13-2013 10:46 AM

that's like half their team

FanHabtic 01-13-2013 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glenbuis (Post 57521461)
I don't think Montreal has any interest in the package that was there to start.

Its a lot of quantity for quality. Neither team accepts it.

kerjuxaxaxa 01-13-2013 11:20 AM

not interested for that value

Thrace 01-13-2013 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FanHabtic (Post 57523301)
Its a lot of quantity for quality. Neither team accepts it.

Even worse for Detroit is that a lot of the quantity is also pretty high quality. I like Subban a lot, but no way do the Wings gut their prospect pool for him.

FanHabtic 01-13-2013 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thrace (Post 57523641)
Even worse for Detroit is that a lot of the quantity is also pretty high quality. I like Subban a lot, but no way do the Wings gut their prospect pool for him.

Its just not a good fit. The Habs have a lot of quality forward prospects (Collberg, Kristo, Leblanc, Gallagher, Bozon, Bournival) and defense prospects (Tinordi, Beaulieu, Ellis, Thrower). They don't need more of these prospect types.

Blind Gardien 01-13-2013 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thrace (Post 57523641)
Even worse for Detroit is that a lot of the quantity is also pretty high quality. I like Subban a lot, but no way do the Wings gut their prospect pool for him.

I don't see the Wings doing that either, but even on the OP offer, I'd want a D who could play, like Smith, as part of that package. Take something else out and put Smith in, then maybe it tempts the Habs. Whereas, the Wings were out of the bidding even before that.

solo16 01-13-2013 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glenbuis (Post 57521461)
I don't think Montreal has any interest in the package that was there to start.

Montreal is stupid then. Filppula is a solid young top 6er. Oullete is an extremely good top 6 d prospect that was one of the best dman on team Canada wjc. Nyquist is a top 50 (maybe 25) Offensive prospect in the league. And to boot a 2nd. Those are three quality assets though not sure if any have the franchise upside that Subban has (and will probably never realize).

Subban is a very good top 4 dman. Potential franchise Defenseman.

FanHabtic 01-13-2013 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solo16 (Post 57524529)
Montreal is stupid then. Filppula is a solid young top 6er. Oullete is an extremely good top 6 d prospect that was one of the best dman on team Canada wjc. Nyquist is a top 50 (maybe 25) Offensive prospect in the league. And to boot a 2nd. Those are three quality assets though not sure if any have the franchise upside that Subban has (and will probably never realize).

Subban is a very good top 4 dman. Potential franchise Defenseman.

Subban is a #1 dman which is why you would have to surrender those types of players. But the Habs NEED Subban. Its not an option. That offer doesn't change the Habs prospect depth - we are deep in prospects. Filpulla is not that enticing. Clearly you have no idea about the Habs team needs or weaknesses.

solo16 01-13-2013 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blind Gardien (Post 57524097)
I don't see the Wings doing that either, but even on the OP offer, I'd want a D who could play, like Smith, as part of that package. Take something else out and put Smith in, then maybe it tempts the Habs. Whereas, the Wings were out of the bidding even before that.

Smith and Subban are similar players. Similar attributes, same age, Smith has a better pedigre.. Subban is more proven but honestly the difference is alot closer than you think.

CanadienShark 01-13-2013 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solo16 (Post 57524699)
Smith and Subban are similar players. Similar attributes, same age, Smith has a better pedigre.. Subban is more proven but honestly the difference is alot closer than you think.

Nooooooooope :laugh::laugh::laugh:

FanHabtic 01-13-2013 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solo16 (Post 57524699)
Smith and Subban are similar players. Similar attributes, same age, Smith has a better pedigre.. Subban is more proven but honestly the difference is alot closer than you think.

LOL, Brendan Smith has nothing close to the Pedigree of Subban. Subban played for Canada's World Junior team, won gold and was on the tournament All-Star team. Dominated in the AHL.

solo16 01-13-2013 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FanHabtic (Post 57524633)
Subban is a #1 dman which is why you would have to surrender those types of players. But the Habs NEED Subban. Its not an option. That offer doesn't change the Habs prospect depth - we are deep in prospects. Filpulla is not that enticing. Clearly you have no idea about the Habs team needs or weaknesses.

36 point Number 1 dman. Good luck with that. Subban sucked last season. He has a long way to go to be a number 1 or a franchise dman that MTL thinks he can become. But I was speaking strictly value.

If you want to keep a dman keep a dman. The OP's proposal (value wise) puts you in the discussion for quite a few top defenseman better than Subban.

FanHabtic 01-13-2013 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solo16 (Post 57524921)
36 point Number 1 dman. Good luck with that. Subban sucked last season. He has a long way to go to be a number 1 or a franchise dman that MTL thinks he can become. But I was speaking strictly value.

If you want to keep a dman keep a dman. The OP's proposal (value wise) puts you in the discussion for quite a few top defenseman better than Subban.

Again, the bolded is clear evidence that you are clueless!!!

The OP's proposal may have value but it doesn't help the Habs - it hurts the Habs. We are already stocked with prospects and Filpulla is not enticing.

FanHabtic 01-13-2013 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solo16 (Post 57524921)
36 point Number 1 dman. Good luck with that. Subban sucked last season. He has a long way to go to be a number 1 or a franchise dman that MTL thinks he can become. But I was speaking strictly value.

If you want to keep a dman keep a dman. The OP's proposal (value wise) puts you in the discussion for quite a few top defenseman better than Subban.

If you care to educate yourself, have a read of the article in the link below:

http://awinninghabit.com/2012/08/15/...-to-his-peers/

FanHabtic 01-13-2013 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solo16 (Post 57524921)
36 point Number 1 dman. Good luck with that. Subban sucked last season. He has a long way to go to be a number 1 or a franchise dman that MTL thinks he can become. But I was speaking strictly value.

If you want to keep a dman keep a dman. The OP's proposal (value wise) puts you in the discussion for quite a few top defenseman better than Subban.

Here's some more data to help edumucate you:

"Subban led his team in both relative Corsi and Corsi On, while playing against the second highest quality of competition (him and Josh Gorges did the heavy lifting by a long-shot) and, like most Montreal players, was forced to start way more shifts in the defensive than the offensive zone. I donít like to use +/- numbers because they often tell the wrong story, but if you look at player numbers with and without Subban, you see that Erik Cole was +22 while on the ice with Subban, Max Pacioretty was +15, Tomas Plekanec was -1 and David Desharnais was +22. Without, the four were, respectively -8, -9, -11 and -7."

poetryinmotion 01-13-2013 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FanHabtic (Post 57525335)
Here's some more data to help edumucate you:

"Subban led his team in both relative Corsi and Corsi On, while playing against the second highest quality of competition (him and Josh Gorges did the heavy lifting by a long-shot) and, like most Montreal players, was forced to start way more shifts in the defensive than the offensive zone. I don’t like to use +/- numbers because they often tell the wrong story, but if you look at player numbers with and without Subban, you see that Erik Cole was +22 while on the ice with Subban, Max Pacioretty was +15, Tomas Plekanec was -1 and David Desharnais was +22. Without, the four were, respectively -8, -9, -11 and -7."

Gosh he better sign soon :rant: If we wouldn't trade him for Yakupov (debatable really but shows how important he is to us) then why the hell would we even consider this?

solo16 01-13-2013 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FanHabtic (Post 57524869)
LOL, Brendan Smith has nothing close to the Pedigree of Subban. Subban played for Canada's World Junior team, won gold and was on the tournament All-Star team. Dominated in the AHL.

While Subban was in Juniors Smith was competing for the Hobey Baker (as an under-ager and a defenseman. Being top 5 in the league in points (as a defenseman). Scoring more points than Justin Schultz ever did (to name drop)

They were the same draft class. Smith choose 20 spots earlier.

NHL production will probably be similar this year. Looking at the AHL and NHL playing/time games. But feel free to bring this up at the end of the season.

They both had good AHL. Subban's first year was better (though on a better team).

Subban is definitely ahead in development but Smith is one average (30 point) season from being right on the same level.

I do not think many gm's would trade the two because the only difference between the two is playing time (see less mistakes) and a little luck. How much is Subban's two years in the NHL really worth to a GM? A second? I think both GM's laugh at a deal with Subban and Smith at the heart.

I think Subban has struggled as a top pair defender. Looked to me like he badly needed to be hidden on the second pair again. Maybe this is his year.

In full disclosure, I expect Subban to break out to a true number 1 in the near future. Much like Smith he should end up a 45-50 point defenseman (at some point in the next 5 years). I like both players but I think they are both young and need to work on their complete game.

FanHabtic 01-13-2013 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solo16 (Post 57526003)
While Subban was in Juniors Smith was competing for the Hobey Baker (as an under-ager and a defenseman. Being top 5 in the league in points (as a defenseman). Scoring more points than Justin Schultz ever did (to name drop)

They were the same draft class. Smith choose 20 spots earlier.

NHL production will probably be similar this year. Looking at the AHL and NHL playing/time games. But feel free to bring this up at the end of the season.

They both had good AHL. Subban's first year was better (though on a better team).

Subban is definitely ahead in development but Smith is one average (30 point) season from being right on the same level.

I do not think many gm's would trade the two because the only difference between the two is playing time (see less mistakes) and a little luck. How much is Subban's two years in the NHL really worth to a GM? A second? I think both GM's laugh at a deal with Subban and Smith at the heart.

I think Subban has struggled as a top pair defender. Looked to me like he badly needed to be hidden on the second pair again. Maybe this is his year.

In full disclosure, I expect Subban to break out to a true number 1 in the near future. Much like Smith he should end up a 45-50 point defenseman (at some point in the next 5 years). I like both players but I think they are both young and need to work on their complete game.

Read the articles to better educate yourself. You have no clue.

solo16 01-13-2013 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FanHabtic (Post 57525185)
If you care to educate yourself, have a read of the article in the link below:

http://awinninghabit.com/2012/08/15/...-to-his-peers/

That was a good read. Thank you. Quite informative.

Surprised Subban is that good at PK (or at least his defensive pairing is). My opinion of Subban went up a fair bit today. I am not 100% believer in Corsi but they are helpful and a useful indicator.

Though I still stand by Smith vs. Subban is a hard trade for either side. I cant see detroit adding any significant value with those types of players. For example even if Det added a 1st it would not be enough for MTL. And Det probably would rather see what Smith can do.

I think you will be surprised by Smith. He went .5ppg in 14 games last season from the bottom of our lineup. (2nd pp 2nd/3rd pair). One of the best +- on the team in that stretch.


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