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-   -   Proposal: Cbj-nyr (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1323389)

Halpysback* 01-14-2013 05:29 PM

Cbj-nyr
 
To NYR: Tyutin, Nikitin, MacKenzie, Letestu

To CBJ: Del Zotto, Rupp, Thomas/2nd

New York imports a 2nd pairing that has great chemistry and no longer has any weakness on D with McDonaugh-Girardi/Tyutin-Nikitin/Staal-Stralman. Each of these pairings can play 20+ min assuming Stralman builds on his last season. Also NYR improves its bottom 6, which looks a bit suspect (at least to me). Rupp goes the other way for salary, perhaps CBJ withholds some salary to make it work. The upgrades could be enough to push the Rangers over the top.

Columbus clears roster spots for its youth movement and gets a defenseman with high potential.

The Amity Affliction 01-14-2013 05:34 PM

While not a terrible deal, I don't think either team does it.

hlaverty06 01-14-2013 05:34 PM

So the rangers are giving up a good piece, a dime a dozen 4th liner, and a question mark in a spec or pic

I feel like rangers need to add something more worthwhile than rupp

The Amity Affliction 01-14-2013 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hlaverty06 (Post 57596001)
So the rangers are giving up a good piece, a dime a dozen 4th liner, and a question mark in a spec or pic

I feel like rangers need to add something more worthwhile than rupp

It really comes down to Del Zotto for Tyutin and Nikitin and I'm not really sure that I'd do that.

Vankiller Whale 01-14-2013 05:37 PM

Pretty bad for the Jackets.

TSA0402 01-14-2013 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale (Post 57596113)
Pretty bad for the Jackets.

Understatement. Nikitin and Tyutin were a ridiculously good pair last year. Del Zotto doesn't come close.

Hell, if Nikitin had played all year with Columbus, his offensive numbers would be on par with Del Zotto.

Mayor Bee 01-14-2013 05:44 PM

From the CBJ perspective, broken down thusly.

On the blueline:
Tyutin and Nikitin were an excellent pairing last season in all zones, and the blueline as a whole looks to be taking shape nicely. Johnson and Wisniewski showed chemistry in limited action down the stretch last season as well, and both of those are probably set as pairings.

Bringing in Del Zotto would have two notable effects:
- Lose a valuable pairing in its entirety, and
- Need to shuffle through a variety of defensemen, trying to find someone to play alongside Del Zotto

Up front:
MacKenzie for Rupp by itself would be a downgrade. We've seen Rupp; he was useless here. Most of us have seen Rupp since he left; he's still useless. Rupp is older and more expensive, and less versatile.

For those who haven't seen him before, MacKenzie is a smart bottom-6 player who can play with nearly anyone on a roster. Put him on a scoring line, and the results won't be great, but he won't embarrass himself out there either. Put him on a checking line, and he can either forecheck like a demon or play physical. He's also one of the longest-tenured Jackets; he was one of the first players Howson signed.

Letestu really picked up his play once the coaching switch occurred and his role became more clearly defined. He basically floundered under Arniel but took off once Richards came in.

Other considerations
The extra roster spot is generally meaningless. Columbus has a large number of players who can be sent down or called up without needing to clear waivers, so that's not a meaningful consideration.

The Amity Affliction 01-14-2013 05:46 PM

And neither of Tyutin nor Nikitn have the upside that Del Zotto does.

A rebuilding team like Columbus would be THRILLED to get a piece like that.

Fro 01-14-2013 05:47 PM

this isn't a very good deal for the Jackets...Mayor Bee pretty much covered all the reasons why...

capitalsrock 01-14-2013 05:55 PM

no deal from Columbus. Rangers take this and complete their defensive core nicely.

Kershaw 01-14-2013 06:01 PM

Done deal for me.

McDonagh-Girardi
Tyutin-Nikitin
Staal-Stralman

This is essentially rolling 2 elite defense pairings and one very good one. No holes on that defense.

hlaverty06 01-14-2013 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CM Lundqvist (Post 57596459)
And neither of Tyutin nor Nikitn have the upside that Del Zotto does.

A rebuilding team like Columbus would be THRILLED to get a piece like that.

Their D is actually pretty solid on paper, I think they'd rather a good pair than a good young player

Mayor Bee 01-14-2013 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CM Lundqvist (Post 57596459)
And neither of Tyutin nor Nikitn have the upside that Del Zotto does.

A rebuilding team like Columbus would be THRILLED to get a piece like that.

Speculative at best.

You're starting from the assumption that Columbus is rebuilding. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. There's a team on the ice that has seen massive turnover in the last two years, and is currently one of the youngest in the league (and had the most players active during the lockout). Are the pieces in place already, and now we just need to see how they mature and grow together?

The two oldest players on the team are Vinny Prospal and Adrian Aucoin, both of whom are on one-year contracts. After that is Derek MacKenzie, who's 31. Several key players aren't even close to their prime yet.

What would be gained from basically gutting the defensive core? Why should impatience rule the day?

Kershaw 01-14-2013 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TSA0402 (Post 57596257)
Understatement. Nikitin and Tyutin were a ridiculously good pair last year. Del Zotto doesn't come close.

Hell, if Nikitin had played all year with Columbus, his offensive numbers would be on par with Del Zotto.

And did you base this off a sample size in which Nikitin had lower point totals than Del Zotto?

Frenzy1 01-14-2013 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CM Lundqvist (Post 57596459)
And neither of Tyutin nor Nikitn have the upside that Del Zotto does.

A rebuilding team like Columbus would be THRILLED to get a piece like that.

If it is such a good deal for Columbus, why would NYR do it?

In no world would you trade a solid 2 pairing (the whole 2nd pairing - legit 3 and 4) for 1 guy who at best would turn out to be a number 2 dman.

TSA0402 01-14-2013 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tortorella (Post 57597605)
And did you base this off a sample size in which Nikitin had a much lower PPG than Del Zotto?

With Columbus, he was on pace for at least 40+ points. I really dont care what he did with St. Louis, amazing what happens when you play hockey with someone who speaks the same language as you.

edit : Nikitin CLB 54 GP 32 points

Del Zotto NYR 77 GP 41 points.

Oh yea... Nikitin has MUCH better numbers. Please...

The Amity Affliction 01-14-2013 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hlaverty06 (Post 57597225)
Their D is actually pretty solid on paper, I think they'd rather a good pair than a good young player

Their D is ok, still shaky though. As much as I love JMFJ (one of my favorites in the league), he's somewhat shaky defensively and so is Wisniewski. Tyutin and Nikitin are probably their best pair in terms of defensive play, but offensively don't give you a ton, Nikitin has the potential to do so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mayor Bee (Post 57597405)
Speculative at best.

So you're telling me that Columbus wouldn't be thrilled to have a 21 year old that finished 12th in Norris Voting after scoring 10 goals and 40 points in 2012?

They must have a luxury of great defensemen then.

Quote:

You're starting from the assumption that Columbus is rebuilding. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't.
So they're in win now mode then? I don't see where else they would be. It may not be the full blown Pittsburgh Penguins "rebuild", but it sure doesn't look like they're looking to win a cup or be a legitimate cup contender.

Quote:

There's a team on the ice that has seen massive turnover in the last two years, and is currently one of the youngest in the league (and had the most players active during the lockout). Are the pieces in place already, and now we just need to see how they mature and grow together?
That's fair, but I don't see how they wouldn't love to have a solid young piece with a lot of room to grow that's played very well.

Quote:

The two oldest players on the team are Vinny Prospal and Adrian Aucoin, both of whom are on one-year contracts. After that is Derek MacKenzie, who's 31. Several key players aren't even close to their prime yet.

What would be gained from basically gutting the defensive core? Why should impatience rule the day?
I'm not advocating anything, people are just saying this is a horrible trade for Columbus. I think it's just as bad, if not worse for NY. We've already seen what Tyutin can do and it hasn't changed much since his days in NY. Solid defensively, not a #1 shutdown pairing kind of guy on a championship contending team, but good enough to log those minutes in a pinch. Shows you the offensive flashes that you thought would have catapulted him to a legit #1 defender that have never came to be. Nikitin is a young, more offensive type that has a bit of a higher upside than Tyutin. To me, he's more of what Tyutin should have became.

Two good assets for one very solid asset. Usually, the team that gets the best player wins the trade. Columbus would be winning this trade. The extra crap involved can be removed. It doesn't benefit either team.

SingnBluesOnBroadway 01-14-2013 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by capitalsrock (Post 57596919)
no deal from Columbus. Rangers take this and complete their defensive core nicely.

No, they really don't.

Kershaw 01-14-2013 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TSA0402 (Post 57597993)
With Columbus, he was on pace for at least 40+ points. I really dont care what he did with St. Louis, amazing what happens when you play hockey with someone who speaks the same language as you.

True, I'm a big fan of Nikitin, but per pace means nothing to me unless he replicated that production in previous years, which he hasn't.

Halpysback* 01-14-2013 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mayor Bee (Post 57596391)
From the CBJ perspective, broken down thusly.

On the blueline:
Tyutin and Nikitin were an excellent pairing last season in all zones, and the blueline as a whole looks to be taking shape nicely. Johnson and Wisniewski showed chemistry in limited action down the stretch last season as well, and both of those are probably set as pairings.

Bringing in Del Zotto would have two notable effects:
- Lose a valuable pairing in its entirety, and
- Need to shuffle through a variety of defensemen, trying to find someone to play alongside Del Zotto

Up front:
MacKenzie for Rupp by itself would be a downgrade. We've seen Rupp; he was useless here. Most of us have seen Rupp since he left; he's still useless. Rupp is older and more expensive, and less versatile.

For those who haven't seen him before, MacKenzie is a smart bottom-6 player who can play with nearly anyone on a roster. Put him on a scoring line, and the results won't be great, but he won't embarrass himself out there either. Put him on a checking line, and he can either forecheck like a demon or play physical. He's also one of the longest-tenured Jackets; he was one of the first players Howson signed.

Letestu really picked up his play once the coaching switch occurred and his role became more clearly defined. He basically floundered under Arniel but took off once Richards came in.

Other considerations
The extra roster spot is generally meaningless. Columbus has a large number of players who can be sent down or called up without needing to clear waivers, so that's not a meaningful consideration.

I figured Columbus would be primarily rebuilding this season, especially since it probably will be an extreme seller's market due to how close all teams with be at the deadline. Umberger, Aucoin, Prospal could fetch far more than they're worth, for instance. They're built like a prototypical rebuilding team - offense that still needs to be significantly rounded out (not one sniper), defense that has a lot of good players but is overall pretty young (part that you can argue they finished or nearly finished rebuilding), two question marks/reclamation projects in goal. Del Zotto has higher upside than either Tyutin or Nikitin. Also it depends how much Savard steps up. Honestly, Johnson-Wisniewski/Del Zotto-Savard may not be that much worse a top 4 that Johnson-Wisniewski/Tyutin-Nikitin, at least from what I see. I figured Letestu and MacKenzie were decent bottom 6ers but replaceable, especially for rebuilding teams. Maybe Boll instead?

Rorschach 01-14-2013 06:24 PM

Columbus finally has a decent D corps and so of course they want to rip it up, right???

TSA0402 01-14-2013 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tortorella (Post 57598161)
True, I'm a big fan of Nikitin, but per pace means nothing to me unless he replicated that production in previous years, which he hasn't.

Well, going by that, then the jury is still out on Del Zotto. But yes, Nikitin hasn't proven anything yet and I'd be shocked if he didnt regress at least a bit on those totals.

This has nothing to do with Del Zotto, you could have said McDonagh and I would have given you the same response. Tyutin and Nikitin were a very effective pairing and for Columbus fans who watched the game, they got to see that. The main problem was most of the year they had nothing else on the back end. I'd rather have a good pair that works well together than one bit better d-man.

Kershaw 01-14-2013 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TSA0402 (Post 57598479)
Well, going by that, then the jury is still out on Del Zotto. But yes, Nikitin hasn't proven anything yet and I'd be shocked if he didnt regress at least a bit on those totals.

This has nothing to do with Del Zotto, you could have said McDonagh and I would have given you the same response. Tyutin and Nikitin were a very effective pairing and for Columbus fans who watched the game, they got to see that. The main problem was most of the year they had nothing else on the back end. I'd rather have a good pair that works well together than one bit better d-man.

McDonagh and Del Zotto did it over a full season though.

CBJWennberg10 01-14-2013 06:34 PM

No thank you.

ClevelandJacketFan 01-14-2013 06:38 PM

NikNik is almost entirely off limits.

I like MDZ, and while I'd be willing to move Toots for the right deal, I'm not trading Nik for him as well.

Not a good fit as far as trading.


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