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-   -   Selšnne vs Jagr this season (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1324405)

Malkin112 01-15-2013 10:23 PM

Selšnne vs Jagr this season
 
Which one gets more points this season?

Fire Lindy 01-15-2013 10:33 PM

I went with Teemu, was only a couple of years ago he scored 80 points in 73 games. Still had a very productive season last year on a Ducks team that struggled and I think they are due for a bounce back season.

Jagr could have another productive season, but he's going to a new team and also played on a line with one of the best players in the world last season..so it's tough to say how he will do.

JOHNBOY 01-15-2013 10:37 PM

Selanne

Crafton 01-15-2013 11:13 PM

umlaut wins.

livewell68 01-15-2013 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RockFlagAndEagle (Post 57658985)
I went with Teemu, was only a couple of years ago he scored 80 points in 73 games. Still had a very productive season last year on a Ducks team that struggled and I think they are due for a bounce back season.

Jagr could have another productive season, but he's going to a new team and also played on a line with one of the best players in the world last season..so it's tough to say how he will do.

I know most will pick Selanne which is fine by me because everyone seems to think Jagr is done but before Jagr played with this "so called one of the best players in the world" guy, this guy had 75 Pts. The Dallas Stars have a player very similar to Giroux in Jamie Benn. Many people including Giroux himself will give Jagr a lot of credit for mentoring him last season and showing him how to prepare for games, to train and what kind of mentality to have to be best the player in the world. I mean it's not like Jagr was "the best player in the world" once. :sarcasm:

Sure Giroux was ready for a breakout season very soon anyways, but I think Jagr's early season success (41 Pts in his first 40 games) before the injury were a large part of Giroux' success as well.

I remember early on in the season, Jagr was actually 9th in league scoring (40 games in). Of course he got injured.

I just think it's unfair that everyone is overlooking Jagr's stats in the Czech League this season (the second best league in Europe after the KHL since the Swedish Elite league didn't allow any NHL players to play) where he had 59 Pts in just 34 games (numbers that NHL player like Kotalik, Frolik, Zidicky, Prospal, Hemsky, Plekanec, Krejci... couldn't even close to putting up) but every other player that played well in Europe is bound to carry that success over to the NHL, but Jagr isn't?:help::shakehead

I have followed Jagr a lot this offseason and during his time in Europe and he's 20 lbs lighter than last season, he's faster and quicker, healthier and seems a lot more confident.

One area where Jagr will improve on from last season is on the powerplay. The Flyers rarely ever used Jagr properly on the powerplay and they played him out of his position. He has always camped on the right half walls. That Flyers powerplay ran through Giroux.

The Dallas powerplay will run through Jagr.

I think Jagr will look more like the first half of the season Jagr from last year than the one that struggled down the stretch because of injuries.

Jagr signed with the Dallas Stars not because of money but because they promised him first line minutes and the keys to the powerplay. Jagr still has something left to prove.

Last year he was readjusting to the NHL game after being in the KHL for 3 years, it's different this year. The games played in the Czech league are played on NHL size rinks where he dominated, not European larger ice surfaces. Jagr knows how the "New NHL" is, he'll know what to expect this year

Malkin112 01-15-2013 11:37 PM

Jagr looked very old last season, but maybe he surprises us because shortened season. Highly unlikely though.


Selšnne 35 points
Jagr 20 points

livewell68 01-15-2013 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malkin112 (Post 57661243)
Jagr looked very old last season, but maybe he surprises us because shortened season. Highly unlikely though.


Selšnne 35 points
Jagr 20 points

20 Pts? :shakehead

So are you saying the 59 Pts he put up in 34 games in the Czech league this year was just a fluke? He wasn't the only NHL'er player there, in fact some pretty good, younger NHL'ers such as Hemsky and Krejci played there and they barely cracked the PPG mark over there. The Czech league is not the NHL and it's not as good as the KHL either, but at least the smaller NHL sized rinks have to count for something. The Czech league is widely regarded as the 3rd best league in Europe and this year it was the 2nd best since the Swedish Elite league didn't allow any NHL players to join.

I don't understand why he's being so underrated and why his numbers in Europe are being so overlooked.

Other players that played in inferior leagues such as the Finnish or Swiss leagues put up good numbers (not nearly as good as Jagr's) and they are somehow going to dominate in the NHL but Jagr's stats in the Czech league will end there and he will just suddenly stop scoring?

He scored 24 goals and added 35 assists in 34 games for crying out loud. He wasn't just "playing", he dominated.

TAnnala 01-16-2013 12:00 AM

I say Selanne, but my opinion should not count a lot in this one.

I personally think it is as open as it can be. Selanne has the edge on recent play, but Jagr is the only one stopping himself for not being in the top-10/20 this year.

Short season and good PP time and i would not be surprised to see him dominating the competition.

On the other hand, Selanne led the Ducks in scoring last year. Really hard to say.

I guess the age has to make a difference at some point...

Gibson Les Palms 01-16-2013 12:01 AM

Teemu

livewell68 01-16-2013 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TAnnala (Post 57662071)
I say Selanne, but my opinion should not count a lot in this one.

I personally think it is as open as it can be. Selanne has the edge on recent play, but Jagr is the only one stopping himself for not being in the top-10/20 this year.

Short season and good PP time and i would not be surprised to see him dominating the competition.

On the other hand, Selanne led the Ducks in scoring last year. Really hard to say.

I guess the age has to make a difference at some point...

I think this is a very fair assessment. I personally think Selanne will be good for 35-48 Pts myself but I think a lot of people are overlooking Jagr this year and I think they are so wrong for doing so. Especially this season.

You yourself can at least attest to the fact that Jagr simply dominated the competition in the Czech league this year, a league that was considered the second best in Europe this season due to the Swedish Elite league (usually the 2nd best league) not allowing NHL players to participate.

I simply don't think Jagr's production will somehow just suddenly stop because he's back in the NHL. I think Jagr being in game shape and already having played will play in his favor.

Malkin112 01-16-2013 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by livewell68 (Post 57661321)
20 Pts? :shakehead

So are you saying the 59 Pts he put up in 34 games in the Czech league this year was just a fluke? He wasn't the only NHL'er player there, in fact some pretty good, younger NHL'ers such as Hemsky and Krejci played there and they barely cracked the PPG mark over there. The Czech league is not the NHL and it's not as good as the KHL either, but at least the smaller NHL sized rinks have to count for something. The Czech league is widely regarded as the 3rd best league in Europe and this year it was the 2nd best since the Swedish Elite league didn't allow any NHL players to join.

I don't understand why he's being so underrated and why his numbers in Europe are being so overlooked.

Other players that played in inferior leagues such as the Finnish or Swiss leagues put up good numbers (not nearly as good as Jagr's) and they are somehow going to dominate in the NHL but Jagr's stats in the Czech league will end there and he will just suddenly stop scoring?

He scored 24 goals and added 35 assists in 34 games for crying out loud. He wasn't just "playing", he dominated.

first of all Czech league isnt 2nd best league in europe not even close. 1. KHL 2. Elitserien 3/4. SM-liiga/Allsvenskan. maybe then Czech league or Swiss league i dont know.

Jagr can still dominate slow tempo game like in Czech league, but not in NHL. He just cannot slow the game at hes level like in past.

TAnnala 01-16-2013 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malkin112 (Post 57662311)
first of all Czech league isnt 2nd best league in europe not even close. 1. KHL 2. Elitserien 3/4. SM-liiga/Allsvenskan. maybe then Czech league or Swiss league i dont know.

Jagr can still dominate slow tempo game like in Czech league, but not in NHL. He just cannot slow the game at hes level like in past.

Allsvenskan is not better than Czech league. I will say SM-liiga is but there is no way the second tier league in sweden is the third best after NHL.

livewell68 01-16-2013 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malkin112 (Post 57662311)
first of all Czech league isnt 2nd best league in europe not even close. 1. KHL 2. Elitserien 3/4. SM-liiga/Allsvenskan. maybe then Czech league or Swiss league i dont know.

Jagr can still dominate slow tempo game like in Czech league, but not in NHL. He just cannot slow the game at hes level like in past.

Have a look at this: http://www.behindthenet.ca/projecting_to_nhl.php

The Czech Extraliga has the third best point translation into NHL points at 74% with the KHL obviously being first and the Swedish Elite league being 2nd. However as I pointed out and as you should be aware, the Swedish league didn't have any NHL players there this season, the Czech league did.

Second of all, explain to me why certain "very good" young players like Krejci and Hemsky couldn't put up similar numbers to Jagr if this Czech league is as easy as you say it is? Last time Jagr played in the Czech league and played this well was during the 2004-05 lockout year when he had 28 Pts in 17 games for a PPG of 1.65, we all know how well he played the next year in the NHL. This year, he actually played even better in the Czech league with a PPG of 1.74 and he sustained that pace for exactly twice as many games at 34.

In regards to slowing down the game, please watch this clip and tell me what's so slow about the pace here? Sure the game is not as rough as the NHL, but a lot of very good NHL talent went to play there including Tuuka Rask who got lit up for a Jagr hattrick in one of the games.

A lot of the goals Jagr scored were actually on rushes, not "slowing down the game to his pace" as you put it.


Malkin112 01-16-2013 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by livewell68 (Post 57662491)
Have a look at this: http://www.behindthenet.ca/projecting_to_nhl.php

The Czech Extraliga has the third best point translation into NHL points at 74% with the KHL obviously being first and the Swedish Elite league being 2nd. However as I pointed out and as you should be aware, the Swedish league didn't have any NHL players there, the Czech league did.

Second of all, explain to me why certain "very good" young players like Krejci and Hemsky couldn't put up similar numbers to Jagr if this Czech league is as easy as you say? Last time Jagr played in the Czech league and played this well was during the 2004-05 lockout year when he had 28 Pts in 17 games for a PPG of 1.65 we all know how well he played the next year in the NHL. This year, he actually played even better in the Czech league with a PPG of 1.74 and he sustained that pace for exactly twice as many games at 34.

In regards to slowing down the game, please watch this clip and tell me what's so slow about the pace here? Sure the game is not as rough as the NHL, but a lot of very good NHL talent went to play there including Tuuka Rask who got lit up for a Jagr hattrick in one of the games.

A lot of the goals Jagr scored were actually on rushes, not "slowing down the game to his pace" as you put it.

Jagr is much more skilled than those players you mention above and therefore can dominate slow tempo game but not in NHL. He is just too slow now days.

I dont even bother to estimate game speed on that clip

livewell68 01-16-2013 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malkin112 (Post 57663267)
Jagr is much more skilled than those players you mention above and therefore can dominate slow tempo game but not in NHL. He is just too slow now days.

I dont even bother to estimate game speed on that clip

So everyone in that clip was skating at slow motion and Jagr "is just too slow" and somehow outpaced the slow motion moving skaters to go on those rushes right? :sarcasm:

I can accept an argument when there is a case there for it, but the fact that the video actually shows that Jagr is faster this year than he was last year just tells me that you are either trolling or just trying to argue with me for the sake of arguing. Jagr was slower last year, especially after he got injured, but he's not slow this year.

Just go ask Dallas Stars' fans that actually have been following the training camp and they will tell you that Jagr has been flying in practice. He's made the goalies look foolish in drills and scrimmages and there was an article from one of the Dallas sports media outlets that had one headline saying :
Quote:

Jagr certainly still has extraordinary skill with the puck as he stood head and shoulders -- literally and figuratively -- above the rest of the team when it comes to putting the puck in the net.
This coming from http://www.defendingbigd.com/2013/1/...as-stars-debut

livewell68 01-16-2013 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malkin112 (Post 57663267)
Jagr is much more skilled than those players you mention above and therefore can dominate slow tempo game but not in NHL. He is just too slow now days.

I dont even bother to estimate game speed on that clip

So they somehow play much better in the NHL those other players but Jagr doesn't? The roles get reversed? BTW, speed and skating is a skill. So Jagr is more skilled than the rest? How? Passing? Shooting? Stickhandling? It sure seems like Jagr is still one heck of a player then, doesn't it?;)

This is simply a double standard and biased approach you are showcasing. It should be across the board. Plekanec played on Jagr's line in the Czech league and he's known for his speed, but it was mostly Jagr scoring on breakaways and rushes and not Plekanec. Do you honestly think Jagr returned to the NHL to put up 20 Pts? He was already dominating this "easier league", why not just stay there, continue to dominate and be treated like a king by the fans in every arena he plays in and just keep his pride? Why come back to the NHL to subject himself to embarrassment and be half the player he was if he didn't think he still had something left to prove and if he didn't think he could improve on last year?

Skill is skill. Jagr will always be more talented than 85% of the NHL regardless of his age but please be ready to be surprised by his speed this year. He's much lighter and usually less weight means faster....

Quote:

Dreger mentioned how Jagr, who currently weighs 240 pounds, said he planned on losing some weight before the 2012-2013 season.
Quote:

Jagr, who some felt slowed towards the end of the season, plans to change his training regime this offseason in order to lose weight, with the goal of regaining some speed.
Courtesy of http://m.espn.go.com/nhl/playerupdate?playerId=405&wjb=

This was all before the Czech league season even started. Jagr has already lost the weight (220 lbs now instead of 240 lbs) and by all indications has gained some speed on his skates.

livewell68 01-16-2013 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malkin112 (Post 57662311)
first of all Czech league isnt 2nd best league in europe not even close. 1. KHL 2. Elitserien 3/4. SM-liiga/Allsvenskan. maybe then Czech league or Swiss league i dont know.

Jagr can still dominate slow tempo game like in Czech league, but not in NHL. He just cannot slow the game at hes level like in past.

Quote:

The Czech Extraliga is the highest-level ice hockey league in the Czech Republic. As of 2009, it is ranked by the IIHF as the third strongest league in Europe
http://www.bookmaker.net/live-lines/...ckey-czech-rep

This at least proves that the Czech Extraliga is the 3rd best league in Europe and at least for this season it was the second best since no NHL players played in the Swedish Elite leagues while the Czech league saw a large of influx of NHL'ers play there thanks to the lockout.

Malkin112 01-16-2013 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by livewell68 (Post 57663359)
So everyone in that clip was skating at slow motion and Jagr "is just too slow" and somehow outpaced the slow motion moving skaters to go on those rushes right?

I can accept an argument when there is a case there, but the fact that the video actually shows that Jagr is faster this year than he was last year just tells me that you are either trolling or just trying to argue with me for the sake of arguing. Jagr was slower last year, especially after he got injured, but he's not slow this year.

Just go ask Dallas Stars' fans that actually have been following the training camp and they will tell you that Jagr has been flying in practice. He's made the goalies look foolish in drills and scrimmages and there was an article from one of the Dallas sports media outlets that had one headline saying :

This coming from http://www.defendingbigd.com/2013/1/...as-stars-debut

Huoh you just dont get it. Jagr may look fast and unstoppaple in Czech league but not in NHL. You just have to accept Jagr is never going to same player he ones was IMO

Remember last year you said Jagr will get atleast PPG? Anyway we will see in couple of months what happens

Kezia 01-16-2013 01:44 AM

Selanne

Oan 01-16-2013 06:36 AM

Nice to see that jags6868 is back to his old, productive self, mentioning jagr in every single post he makes :handclap:

ricky0034 01-16-2013 06:47 AM

probably Selanne

but it will be a lot closer than a lot of people seem to think

Malkin112 01-16-2013 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oan (Post 57666685)
Nice to see that jags6868 is back to his old, productive self, mentioning jagr in every single post he makes :handclap:

Only problem is hes usually dead wrong and still try to debate.

TAnnala 01-16-2013 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malkin112 (Post 57666851)
Only problem is hes usually dead wrong and still try to debate.

That is BS, he is absolutely too keen on the player and clearly biased. But he has never pulled fact's out of his ass. Numbers, dates and performances are usually very accurate on him and he makes good points.

It is just the way he presents them that annoys you. Like many other here too. But he is usually right on his facts. Analysis and opinions can be debated.

JustOneB4IDie 01-16-2013 08:11 AM

Selanne.

agent082 01-16-2013 08:33 AM

I just hope Selanne scores 3 goals more than Jagr next season.


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