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-   -   Just Watched Ortiz Vs Machida Again (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1326285)

Deen 01-18-2013 02:19 AM

Just Watched Ortiz Vs Machida Again
 
Machida is much more of a 185'r than Anderson is. Watching the Tito Ortiz fight will exemplify this. I think if Anderson would move up to 205 he could dominate Jones and allowing Lyoto to fight at his proper weight class would be a respectful thing to do. Machida would dominate the division IMO. (Obviously they won't fight each other either). Glover is an outside variable also, but does anyone think Anderson should either move up or vacate the title for catch weight and Super fights to promote competition?

BGDDYKWL 01-18-2013 04:52 AM

I'm curious as to what about that fight specifically made you come to that conclusion, cause Tito is a huge 205er and he wasn't able to overpower Machida at any point in that fight.

As to your question, I would absolutely love for Anderson to move to 205 after he fights Weidman, because I don't feel like there will be any real legit competition at 185 for him. At 205 you have Rashad, Hendo, Shogun, Gus, Jones, and perhaps Cormier. If he takes the belt there then you can give him someone like Mir or Barnett (or even Big Country), and if he wins that then Cain/Overeem. I'd like to see just how far this guy can go.

ck26 01-19-2013 06:54 AM

I've read that Machida walks around at 220 ... he's a natural 185'er? Dan Henderson and Rich Franklin are 185'ers who fight at 205. Machida is huge.
Quote:

Originally Posted by BGDDYKWL (Post 57775991)
I would absolutely love for Anderson to move to 205 after he fights Weidman, because I don't feel like there will be any real legit competition at 185 for him. At 205 you have Rashad, Shogun, Hendo, Gus, Jones, and perhaps Cormier. If he takes the belt there then you can give him someone like Mir or Barnett (or even Big Country), and if he wins that then Cain/Overeem. I'd like to see just how far this guy can go.

Anderson??? Dude's already 37, none of the bolded stuff is going to happen.

I would love to see Anderson Silva v Rashad or Shogun, but any talk about him cleaning up at 205 or fighting a heavyweight is insane. Anderson might have a CHANCE against a hand-picked heavyweight who is going to stand and strike with him (Hunt? Kongo?), but all this talk is insane. Anderson's a 185 fighter, the greatest of all time, so enjoy it, and stop asking Wayne Gretzky to tend goal or try his hand at basketball ...

Gene Parmesan 01-19-2013 04:06 PM

Lyoto has surprising strength. It catches a lot of his opponents off guard.

BGDDYKWL 01-19-2013 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ck26 (Post 57829719)
I would love to see Anderson Silva v Rashad or Shogun, but any talk about him cleaning up at 205 or fighting a heavyweight is insane. Anderson might have a CHANCE against a hand-picked heavyweight who is going to stand and strike with him (Hunt? Kongo?), but all this talk is insane.

I realize he's old, but he did just sign a 10-fight deal. Now granted it is HIGHLY unlikely we see that 10th fight, but I wanna see just how good this guy is. Say he fought Shogun or Rashad next and smoked them. Would have to be Jones next. Say he smokes him. Well that's only 2 fights, so I think it's fair to assume he could fight again (especially since beating Jones obviously means he's still at the top of his game). The only logical next opponent would be a top 5 or so HW.

Quote:

Anderson's a 185 fighter, the greatest of all time, so enjoy it, and stop asking Wayne Gretzky to tend goal or try his hand at basketball ...
But see that's just the thing for me. Everyone wants to say Anderson is the greatest of all-time (and by the general definition I'm fine with that). But if a top 5-10 HW would smoke him, then to me he isn't even close to the greatest fighter of all-time. The greatest fighter of all-time IMO is the guy who could beat the most people. Anderson might be the greatest P4P, but if he would lose a fight to Barnett you can't say he's a better fighter than Barnett. You can say he's better for his size, and you can say he was far better in his division, but he's not a better fighter, because the better fighter would win.

ck26 01-25-2013 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGDDYKWL (Post 57868861)
Say he fought Shogun or Rashad next and smoked them. Would have to be Jones next. Say he smokes him.

And what happens if the LA Galaxy soccer team wins the next 4 MLS titles, then moves to England and wins the Premier League? You can't just throw that hypothetical out there ... that's two HUGE what-ifs. It's well documented that "A>B and B>C therefore A>C" doesn't work in fighting, but Jones has cleaned out a division that Anderson has only dipped his toe into.
Quote:

Originally Posted by BGDDYKWL (Post 57868861)
Everyone wants to say Anderson is the greatest of all-time. But if a top 5-10 HW would smoke him, then to me he isn't even close to the greatest fighter of all-time. The greatest fighter of all-time IMO is the guy who could beat the most people.

OK, then Cain Velasquez is the greatest fighter of all time. Check back in January 2017 if you disagree.

Dark Shadows 01-25-2013 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGDDYKWL (Post 57868861)
I realize he's old, but he did just sign a 10-fight deal. Now granted it is HIGHLY unlikely we see that 10th fight, but I wanna see just how good this guy is. Say he fought Shogun or Rashad next and smoked them. Would have to be Jones next. Say he smokes him. Well that's only 2 fights, so I think it's fair to assume he could fight again (especially since beating Jones obviously means he's still at the top of his game). The only logical next opponent would be a top 5 or so HW.


But see that's just the thing for me. Everyone wants to say Anderson is the greatest of all-time (and by the general definition I'm fine with that). But if a top 5-10 HW would smoke him, then to me he isn't even close to the greatest fighter of all-time. The greatest fighter of all-time IMO is the guy who could beat the most people. Anderson might be the greatest P4P, but if he would lose a fight to Barnett you can't say he's a better fighter than Barnett. You can say he's better for his size, and you can say he was far better in his division, but he's not a better fighter, because the better fighter would win.

Most people say "Pound for Pound" greatest of all time in Mixed Martial arts. Which he has a fair argument for.

In any case, It is a sport and they have weight classes for a reason. In a fixed environment like a cage with rules, we know who the best fighters are. A ring was much different and favored a different kind of fighter.

In a street fight with no rules and weight classes, we have no idea since we don't know how those big heavyweights would like a speedy Silva smashing them between the legs with kicks, and how they would react to biting and eye gouging and small joint manipulation(not to mention throat shots). Not to mention stomps and soccer kicks if he dropped them first.

All we see is how athletes adapt to fighting in specific circumstances, but we will never see the best fighter in the world

BGDDYKWL 01-25-2013 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ck26 (Post 58316293)
And what happens if the LA Galaxy soccer team wins the next 4 MLS titles, then moves to England and wins the Premier League? You can't just throw that hypothetical out there ... that's two HUGE what-ifs. It's well documented that "A>B and B>C therefore A>C" doesn't work in fighting, but Jones has cleaned out a division that Anderson has only dipped his toe into.

Anderson has done things to guys that make me think he has a very reasonable chance of beating Jones, who has smoked everyone at 205. Now granted Jones would be favored (my guess is somewhere around -170), but it would not shock me to see Anderson win that fight. We already saw Anderson beat Hendo (who is arguably the number one contender), so I don't think it's THAT far of a leap. Again, I'm not saying Anderson needs to do this, but if he wants big fights then this path certainly fits that.

Quote:

OK, then Cain Velasquez is the greatest fighter of all time. Check back in January 2017 if you disagree.
Yeah I would say he's the best fighter on the planet right now. And since HW was never that strong you could say he's the greatest figher of all-time. I'm sure many feel it would be Fedor, but my guess is Cain beats him, so...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Shadows (Post 58323899)
Most people say "Pound for Pound" greatest of all time in Mixed Martial arts. Which he has a fair argument for.

Oh, very fair. I honestly think you'd have to give it to him. He's not as dominant as GSP, but his finishing ability sets him apart. Personally I'd say Jones is the best P4P, but I understand the longevity factor so I have no problem with Anderson.

Quote:

In any case, It is a sport and they have weight classes for a reason. In a fixed environment like a cage with rules, we know who the best fighters are. A ring was much different and favored a different kind of fighter.

In a street fight with no rules and weight classes, we have no idea since we don't know how those big heavyweights would like a speedy Silva smashing them between the legs with kicks, and how they would react to biting and eye gouging and small joint manipulation(not to mention throat shots). Not to mention stomps and soccer kicks if he dropped them first.

All we see is how athletes adapt to fighting in specific circumstances, but we will never see the best fighter in the world
Sure, I guess my point is you can't say Anderson is the greatest fighter ever if a number of HWs would beat him. We can only go by the rules these fighters follow, and using those as the guideline my guess is there are several HWs that beat Anderson, and Jones very likely could as well, so therefore they are better fighters. If some journeyman HW like Duffee say would easily dispose of Aldo, then he's the better fighter, because he would win that fight. I've never been overly concerned with P4P, but I know a lot of people are, and that's fine.

Tough Guy 02-02-2013 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGDDYKWL (Post 57775991)
I'm curious as to what about that fight specifically made you come to that conclusion, cause Tito is a huge 205er and he wasn't able to overpower Machida at any point in that fight.

As to your question, I would absolutely love for Anderson to move to 205 after he fights Weidman, because I don't feel like there will be any real legit competition at 185 for him. At 205 you have Rashad, Hendo, Shogun, Gus, Jones, and perhaps Cormier. If he takes the belt there then you can give him someone like Mir or Barnett (or even Big Country), and if he wins that then Cain/Overeem. I'd like to see just how far this guy can go.

Is this post supposed to be serious?

BGDDYKWL 02-03-2013 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G Dawg (Post 58884345)
Is this post supposed to be serious?

100% serious. Anderson has done things that NO ONE has been able to do. He floored Belfort standing (no one has). He stopped Chael with punches (no one has), he stopped Bonnar with punches (no one has), he made Forrest look like a child, he's the only guy to finish Hendo since 2005, etc. I think Weidman's an interesting challenge for him, but assuming he wins, particularly if it's in impressive fashion, I'd love to see him fight a top 5 guy at 205. If he wins, then Jones. If he wins that, then a top 5 HW. If he wins that, then Cain. I'm not saying he wins all those fights, but say he smoked Jones, wouldn't it be logical to assume that only a top HW could pose a challenge to him? And again, I'm not saying he needs to do this to cement his legacy, I'm just saying I'd love to see it.

Tough Guy 02-10-2013 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGDDYKWL (Post 58954975)
100% serious. Anderson has done things that NO ONE has been able to do. He floored Belfort standing (no one has). He stopped Chael with punches (no one has), he stopped Bonnar with punches (no one has), he made Forrest look like a child, he's the only guy to finish Hendo since 2005, etc. I think Weidman's an interesting challenge for him, but assuming he wins, particularly if it's in impressive fashion, I'd love to see him fight a top 5 guy at 205. If he wins, then Jones. If he wins that, then a top 5 HW. If he wins that, then Cain. I'm not saying he wins all those fights, but say he smoked Jones, wouldn't it be logical to assume that only a top HW could pose a challenge to him? And again, I'm not saying he needs to do this to cement his legacy, I'm just saying I'd love to see it.

No offense, but you are dreaming in technicolour. Anderson would get dismantled if he fought Jones. Forget about heavyweight. He doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell at heavyweight.

P.S. He finished Chael with a knee, not punches. And that was after blatantly cheating (greasing/grabbing the shorts to avoid a takedown).

MeatTornado 02-10-2013 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G Dawg (Post 59435327)
No offense, but you are dreaming in technicolour. Anderson would get dismantled if he fought Jones. Forget about heavyweight. He doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell at heavyweight.

P.S. He finished Chael with a knee, not punches. And that was after blatantly cheating (greasing/grabbing the shorts to avoid a takedown).

Well to be fair, he did finish him with elbows/punches. But you're right, Andy would get ragdolled at HW, thats just silly, and Jones would destroy him.

m9 02-10-2013 05:04 PM

I would pick Jones to beat Silva, but it's ridiculous to think Silva has no shot. Vitor Belfort was extremely close to beating Jones, and Silva is worlds better than him.

BGDDYKWL 02-10-2013 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G Dawg (Post 59435327)
No offense, but you are dreaming in technicolour. Anderson would get dismantled if he fought Jones. Forget about heavyweight. He doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell at heavyweight.

I actually hate Anderson, but I don't think I'm dreaming here. Jones would not be that big of a favorite against Anderson, and if Anderson won, well he just beat someone who most thought was unbeatable at 205. Certainly no one at 185 would be worth his time, and IMO no one at 205 would be either. That would mean either a remtach with Jones or a fight against a top 5-10 HW. And again, I'm not saying he needs to do this, but Anderson-Rashad/Shogun or whatever at 205 just wouldn't be all that interesting if Anderson was just coming off a big win against Jones. Anderson vs. say Mir or Cormier at HW would be.

Quote:

P.S. He finished Chael with a knee, not punches. And that was after blatantly cheating (greasing/grabbing the shorts to avoid a takedown).
My point was he finished both Chael and Bonnar with strikes, and no one has ever done that before to either. Anderson has a knack for doing things to guys that no one can.

yada 02-11-2013 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G Dawg (Post 59435327)
No offense, but you are dreaming in technicolour. Anderson would get dismantled if he fought Jones. Forget about heavyweight. He doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell at heavyweight.

P.S. He finished Chael with a knee, not punches. And that was after blatantly cheating (greasing/grabbing the shorts to avoid a takedown).

he wasnt cheating against chael, he beat chael because of a spinning back fist :shakehead :facepalm:

Peter Griffin 02-11-2013 01:56 PM

I don't think Anderson will ever fight at HW. I think if he ever fight Jon Jones it will be his last fight ever.

Gene Parmesan 02-11-2013 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G Dawg (Post 59435327)
No offense, but you are dreaming in technicolour. Anderson would get dismantled if he fought Jones. Forget about heavyweight. He doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell at heavyweight.

P.S. He finished Chael with a knee, not punches. And that was after blatantly cheating (greasing/grabbing the shorts to avoid a takedown).

He finished Chael with g'n'p. The torpedo knee was a precursor.


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