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-   -   Could Raymond be the Bieksa of our Forward Corps? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1326289)

ferroid 01-18-2013 01:47 AM

Could Raymond be the Bieksa of our Forward Corps?
 
As anyone who has spent any length of time here should remember, Bieksa, after putting up some great numbers and getting a new contract, had two serious injuries in the space of two years, and as his play suffered, became the goat of the boards.

When Hamhuis and Ballard were acquired, everyone was falling over themselves rejoicing over what we thought would be the imminent jettisoning of Bieksa.

Fast forward two seasons, and a healthy Bieksa (with no small help from a steady partner in Dan Hamhuis) is one of the darlings of the team - a clutch playoff performer who bleeds blue and green.

My question is, are we seeing the same process happening to Mason Raymond? After posting his career high in points, he's regressed significantly over the past two years to the point where he has become the de facto whipping boy of the team. Like Bieksa, Raymond's two down years were characterized by a rash of injuries.

Obviously, this thread is inspired by Raymond's own inspired play during the scrimmage tonight. That said, the question is legitimate, and has some basis in reasonable logic.

Could Mason Raymond be the Kevin Bieksa of our forward group?

Win One Before I Die 01-18-2013 01:50 AM

maybe... but who is his Hamhuis? definitely not Kesler or Booth...

Smokey McCanucks 01-18-2013 01:55 AM

I think Raymond will be better another year removed from his back injury, he wasn't really 100% last season especially with the other injuries, tough to judge when we haven't see him play in ten months.

YogiCanucks 01-18-2013 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smokey McCanucks (Post 57775035)
I think Raymond will be better another year removed from his back injury, he wasn't really 100% last season especially with the other injuries, tough to judge when we haven't see him play in ten months.

I think it's less to do with "still being injured" as it is to do with a summer spent training vs rehabbing.

Reverend Mayhem 01-18-2013 02:08 AM

Maybe. Though Bieksa is such a success story because he came back to play the best hockey of his career. For Raymond, that would be about 30-35-65 with huge defensive contributions effectively making one of the best defensive forwards in the league.

Could it happen? Yes. Will it happen? Likely not. Doesn't mean he can't be a 20-25-45 guy and still be a big part of the team.

Hammer79 01-18-2013 02:08 AM

I defended Bieksa all the time on these boards. People were actually moaning about losing O'Brien over Bieksa, and talking about Bieksa having negative value. He was in everyone's trade proposal threads, much like Luongo today, but Canucks fans were the ones proposing the cap dump trades. I suspected that his problems were related to a lingering injury, and that he was a physical D-man who could still turn it on for the playoffs. Public opinion didn't really turn around for him though until the series winner against the Sharks.

I've been down on Raymond, but I'm not writing him off. He's had to fight back from a bad injury in the SCF. He's going to need a strong playoff performance to turn around public opinion. He certainly has speed but he needs to stop losing his footing in the corners and on wrap-arounds. I certainly hope he can do it, because the Canucks need their secondary scoring to click if they want to go deep in the playoffs again.

LickTheEnvelope 01-18-2013 02:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedTheTerror (Post 57774953)
maybe... but who is his Hamhuis? definitely not Kesler or Booth...

Hey maybe Schroeder will be a better NHLer than we all expect?

WinterEmpire 01-18-2013 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedTheTerror (Post 57774953)
maybe... but who is his Hamhuis? definitely not Kesler or Booth...

After the scrimmages it looks like it might be Schroeder

maroon 6 01-18-2013 02:17 AM

I cant believe I actually wanted to trade Bieksa for Filatov :facepalm:

canuck4life16 01-18-2013 02:20 AM

Not yet........if raymond score some big goal in the playoff......that be nice......aka Stanley cup winner goal (thinking ahead)

Reverend Mayhem 01-18-2013 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maroon 6 (Post 57775243)
I cant believe I actually wanted to trade Bieksa for Filatov :facepalm:

Here you there bro.

@Hammer: I was quite hard on Bieksa from the 2009-10 season till about just after the All-Star break. I don't think you could blame me with the way he played during that stretch BUT he did make me eat my words and I'm quite thankful of that. He's risen up to become one of my more favourite Canuck defenseman. I don't there has been a defenseman play at such an elite level in one particular series than he did vs San Jose. He played like a (no hyperbole) franchise #1 defender.

PG Canuck 01-18-2013 02:49 AM

I really hope so, we need him to step up sometime here. I won't be holding my breath for very long, however.

professorchaos 01-18-2013 03:06 AM

Not until he fights Eager and superman punches Mike Richards.

Yossarian54 01-18-2013 03:12 AM

God I hope so.

struckmatch 01-18-2013 03:23 AM

So he scores a hat trick in a freaking intersquad game and this is what gets posted?

var 01-18-2013 05:15 AM

Are there any stats for how many penalties Ray's drawn with his tumbling moves?

Great hatty tonight, would be great to see him have success this year

mossey3535 01-18-2013 06:19 AM

For his, our and the team's sake, please God yes.

me2 01-18-2013 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maroon 6 (Post 57775243)
I cant believe I actually wanted to trade Bieksa for Filatov :facepalm:

As some one in the trade Bieksa camp it was not just Filatov, it's Bieksa's cap space back which I would have tried for Michalek who was a UFA and then traded Bieksa if I got him. We probably would have kept Ehrhoff too.

Bieksa was terrible, it was not all physical, he made horrible decisions. I don't know if he felt he needed to be an offensive Dman but it ruined his defensive game. Pairing up with Mitchell and hamhuis and playing a safer game has done wonders for cutting out many of his idiot plays. He's still picking up points but they are safer points.

Luck 6 01-18-2013 08:30 AM

Here's the bottom line: Raymond will be good for 35-40 ES points this season. As far as I'm concerned, that's a guarantee. He made that mark the 2 seasons prior to his injury, with his best ES points season being the season *after* his 53 point season.

Whether he gets back to 50 point form depends on the powerplay. His points took a dip the season his PP minutes dropped (yet everyone on here seemed to rag on him anyways without considering that). When Kesler was moved to the 1st unit, we essentially benched the 2nd unit. This year with Kesler out, I have a feeling the 2nd unit will get some more PP time. Therefore, I believe Raymond will have no problem bouncing back to 50 point form. The difference between Raymond's 53 point season and his 39 point season was exactly that, because as I said, he scored more ES points (pro-rated) in his 39 point season.

All of the stats, keep in mind, should be pro-rated to a 48 game season.

L4cer8 01-18-2013 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luck 6 (Post 57779387)
Here's the bottom line: Raymond will be good for 35-40 ES points this season. As far as I'm concerned, that's a guarantee. He made that mark the 2 seasons prior to his injury, with his best ES points season being the season *after* his 53 point season.

Whether he gets back to 50 point form depends on the powerplay. His points took a dip the season his PP minutes dropped (yet everyone on here seemed to rag on him anyways without considering that). When Kesler was moved to the 1st unit, we essentially benched the 2nd unit. This year with Kesler out, I have a feeling the 2nd unit will get some more PP time. Therefore, I believe Raymond will have no problem bouncing back to 50 point form. The difference between Raymond's 53 point season and his 39 point season was exactly that, because as I said, he scored more ES points (pro-rated) in his 39 point season.

All of the stats, keep in mind, should be pro-rated to a 48 game season.

I think Schroeder has more than enough offensive prowess to run that second unit productively. Hopefully we'll see a bump in Raymond's PP production as a result.

MikeK 01-18-2013 09:27 AM

I don't know. I have been waiting for Raymond to putt it all together for a while now. Even before his serious injury. He has all the tools to be a top scorer in the league but for some reason those skills haven't aligned for him. I hope this is his break out year.

CookieCrumbs* 01-18-2013 09:47 AM

It was an inter squad scrimmage people. Calm down.

PG Canuck 01-18-2013 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by struckmatch (Post 57775825)
So he scores a hat trick in a freaking intersquad game and this is what gets posted?

We should trade for Kadri ASAP too, and our scoring problems are resolved!

Shareefruck 01-18-2013 10:37 AM

In that he has on-and-off consistency? Yes

In that he it has something to do with expectations/contracts? No.

Bieksa is inconsistent, sometimes brilliant, sometimes terrible, with or without his injuries, IMO. I think with him it's partly laziness/lack of focus.

With Raymond I think it has more to do with his limitations-- We've never seen him play great in playoff situations, really, and we always see him play great in mean-nothing, weaker opposition situations. It's just the way his skillset is to a degree. Unlike Bieksa, even when he's terrible, he's always working his ass off and trying to do all the right things.

Last year's level of awfulness was all the back injury, though, IMO.

PG Canuck 01-18-2013 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shareefruck (Post 57784319)
In that he has on-and-off consistency? Yes

In that he it has something to do with expectations/contracts? No.

Bieksa is inconsistent, sometimes brilliant, sometimes terrible, with or without his injuries, IMO.

Raymond just needs a saviour, like Bieksa, and he could return to his old goal scoring form.


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