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-   -   Rank these defensemen in terms of career/peak value (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1326595)

kmad 01-18-2013 01:21 PM

Rank these defensemen in terms of career/peak value
 
All of these d-men have one thing in common - they played for the Vancouver Canucks at one point. I want to try to get some insight as to who was considered the best - not during their stint with Vancouver, but overall.


Mattias Ohlund
Ed Jovanovski
Paul Reinhart
Sami Salo
Alex Edler
Dan Hamhuis
Willie Mitchell
Dave Babych
Jyrki Lumme
Mathieu Schneider
Doug Lidster
Harold Snepsts
Jeff Brown

tony d 01-18-2013 04:19 PM

Top 5:

Reinhart
Babych
Scheidner
Ohlund
Jovanovski

Lonny Bohonos 01-20-2013 04:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony d (Post 57803547)
Top 5:

Reinhart
Babych
Scheidner
Ohlund
Jovanovski

:nod:

Good to see Reinhart at the top. Most young Vancouver fans have no idea who he is. Lessons need to be learned.

habsfanatics 01-20-2013 09:40 AM

I think Babych should be at the top

Big Phil 01-20-2013 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jagorim Jarg (Post 57793607)
All of these d-men have one thing in common - they played for the Vancouver Canucks at one point. I want to try to get some insight as to who was considered the best - not during their stint with Vancouver, but overall.


Mattias Ohlund
Ed Jovanovski
Paul Reinhart
Sami Salo
Alex Edler
Dan Hamhuis
Willie Mitchell
Dave Babych
Jyrki Lumme
Mathieu Schneider
Doug Lidster
Harold Snepsts
Jeff Brown

I had to actually look it up for Schneider, I honestly don't remember him playing a few games in 2010 for the Canucks at all.

Anyway........

Reinhart
Schneider
Babych
Ohlund
Brown

Schneider was just a very dependable defenseman who I always thought was smart with the puck and sort of underrated when it comes to these lists. Never felt Jovanovski peaked the way he should have and always liked Jeff Brown's game in his career.

Ohashi_Jouzu 01-20-2013 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by habsfanatics (Post 57929777)
I think Babych should be at the top

Babych was solid, with a decided edge in career value, but I also think Reinhart was the better player when healthy and in a lineup. Too bad his back went so wonky so early in his career.

Dennis Bonvie 01-20-2013 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu (Post 57933813)
Babych was solid, with a decided edge in career value, but I also think Reinhart was the better player when healthy and in a lineup. Too bad his back went so wonky so early in his career.

Never thought of Babych as solid.

A good offensive player but average (at best) defensively.

Under-achiever for a guy picked 2nd overall in the draft.

Ohashi_Jouzu 01-20-2013 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie (Post 57935495)
Never thought of Babych as solid.

A good offensive player but average (at best) defensively.

Under-achiever for a guy picked 2nd overall in the draft.

Yeah, solid maybe not the best word because of the strictly defensive connotations, but he was decently big and strong for an offensive guy back in the day.

Hardyvan123 01-20-2013 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie (Post 57935495)
Never thought of Babych as solid.

A good offensive player but average (at best) defensively.

Under-achiever for a guy picked 2nd overall in the draft.

Not sure about Dave being an under achiever, was 6th in GP and 8th in points from his draft class.

He was better defensively than some people are giving him credit for here as well, especially later on in his career.

Off the top of my head probably closer to the top 75% of #2 picks over the years than 50%. (pre 2000ish as top end drafting has gotten better in recent times)

Sure he could have been better but that can be said of almost any player .

Dennis Bonvie 01-20-2013 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu (Post 57937007)
Yeah, solid maybe not the best word because of the strictly defensive connotations, but he was decently big and strong for an offensive guy back in the day.

Yep, that's a good description.

Dennis Bonvie 01-20-2013 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 (Post 57937233)
Not sure about Dave being an under achiever, was 6th in GP and 8th in points from his draft class.

He was better defensively than some people are giving him credit for here as well, especially later on in his career.

Off the top of my head probably closer to the top 75% of #2 picks over the years than 50%. (pre 2000ish as top end drafting has gotten better in recent times)

Sure he could have been better but that can be said of almost any player .

Suprising how many #2 picks were poor prior to 2000.

Zyuzin, Tverdovsky, Fallon, Chyzowski, Doug Smith, Perry Turnbull.

Elever 01-20-2013 08:07 PM

I'd be interested in hearing more about Babych, Lidster, and Snepsts since I know these are all notable players (never heard of Lidster though) but they all played before my time.

Btw other dmen that played 400+ games for Vancouver whom you didn't mention, Dennis Kearns, Garth Butcher, Dana Murzyn, and Rick Lanz. Those ones were also before what I remember though I've read that Murzyn was a fairly good dman.

Hardyvan123 01-20-2013 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie (Post 57961305)
Suprising how many #2 picks were poor prior to 2000.

Zyuzin, Tverdovsky, Fallon, Chyzowski, Doug Smith, Perry Turnbull.

I have noticed that drafting has been remarkably better in the last dozen years or so in the early rounds.

I'm not entirely sure why this is either off the top of my head but there doesn't seem to be as many chronically lousy management groups and organizations that go on year after year doing a really poor job, comparatively speaking. I know the CHL has really gotten better managed and organized than in the past as well.

Hardyvan123 01-20-2013 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cursednumber6 (Post 57983687)
Top 5
Babych based on peak...Had wieght problems and was wildly inconsistent defensively but for his short two year peak in wpg/hfd best here.

Reinhart...a personal favorite because of his finesse style and gets the nod on Babych for career but not peak and not range of talents.

Now it gets tough
Lidster very solid underatted d man.....One of Keenan's corp later. Others on this list were flashier but he was solid.

Schneider...Peak he might be the second best d on this list. By my own logic, he should be in front of Lidster but he hung on too long......He was quite a good d with MTL and useful other places but did not age well.

Willie Mitchell solid underrated d man who can play both ways.

I like Babych in my top 5 but there is no way that his peak is any better than Paul Reinhart's 3 year run from 81-83. Paul was the PP QB type that so many teams coveted.

His playoff record is also quite a bit better than Baybch as well even when teams are considered.

pdd 01-20-2013 10:02 PM

Top four:
Ohlund - the only one on my list to peak as a Canuck, and IMO was the league's best defensive defenseman at his peak.
Babych
Reinhart
Schneider

Lonny Bohonos 01-21-2013 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 (Post 57986069)
I like Babych in my top 5 but there is no way that his peak is any better than Paul Reinhart's 3 year run from 81-83. Paul was the PP QB type that so many teams coveted.

His playoff record is also quite a bit better than Baybch as well even when teams are considered.

Reinhart sits in 6th over PPG for dmen 132nd for all players ever.

http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/recor...e-leaders.html

vadim sharifijanov 01-21-2013 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cursednumber6 (Post 57983687)
Top 5
Babych based on peak...Had wieght problems and was wildly inconsistent defensively but for his short two year peak in wpg/hfd best here.

Reinhart...a personal favorite because of his finesse style and gets the nod on Babych for career but not peak and not range of talents.

for me it's just the opposite. peak has to go to reinhart, but his short career makes babych the best career.

at his absolute peak, reinhart got hart votes.

and, to give a little context about babych from what's been said above, you really have to divide his career in two halves: the first half of his career he was a very good but not quite elite offensive defenseman who was questionable in his own end. he wasn't housley bad, or even say jovanovski bad, but with his size and talent, you wanted more. after he hurt his wrist and missed almost an entire year, he goes to the canucks as a salvage project and completely reinvents himself as a steady-as-hell second pairing guy on the canucks' shutdown pairing with gerald diduck.


but this is a really tough thread, because these are such different players and with such different career arcs. and they all have gaps in their games/careers. peak, i'd go:

reinhart
schneider
babych
lumme
ohlund


career:

babych
schneider
ohlund
jovanovski
lumme


schneider was completely one-dimensional until late in his career, but he was for a brief spell (with detroit and at the very end of his LA tenure) an excellent two-way guy.

jeff brown was always completely one-dimensional, but what a talent on the PP.

ohlund, mitchell, and hamhuis have all been at their very best one of the top five guys in the league defensively. ohlund had the fullest career, though hamhuis obviously has a lot of hockey ahead of him.

jovo isn't as good as people thought he was, but isn't as bad as people now say he was. an adventure in his own end, especially on the break out, but easily a number one defenseman in the league in his prime and he's played forever.

lidster was not nearly as good as the numbers make him look. if he's a top pair guy on your team (which he was on the canucks for years), you're going to be a last place team. think: a poor man's dave ellett. lumme also was a second tier offensive defenseman, but a huge huge huge upgrade on lidster.

salo was really underrated at his best, but because he was always an injury waiting to happen, you can't really put his peak that high. a healthy peak salo, if you could guarantee that he'd play 70+ games season-in, season-out for three years would probably make my top five. maybe as high as #3.

snepsts was a solid defensive guy, who brought nothing offensively. but he wasn't an elite defensive guy, unlike ohlund, mitchell, hamhuis, or even peak salo. a quality #3 or 4. better than lidster, but behind most if not all of the others.

pdd 01-21-2013 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov (Post 58012605)
schneider was completely one-dimensional until late in his career, but he was for a brief spell (with detroit and at the very end of his LA tenure) an excellent two-way guy.

When did Schneider play these games with Detroit where he was good defensively? You do know that when Brian Rafalski signed, he wasn't Mathieu Schneider, right?

Ohashi_Jouzu 01-22-2013 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov (Post 58012605)
schneider was completely one-dimensional until late in his career, but he was for a brief spell (with detroit and at the very end of his LA tenure) an excellent two-way guy.

I wouldn't have described Schneider as "one-dimensional" at all during his tenure in Montreal, and even the Islanders got too much service out of him to consider him one-dimensional then either, imo.

Merya 01-22-2013 07:38 AM

You asked career/peak...find it funny most have just listed one list.
For peak Sami Salo must be in top five for everyone. One of the best pointman Nucks have ever had.
And Jyrki Lumme was awesome for many years. I think there is an anti-fenno conspirazy here. :P ;)

Slapshooter 01-23-2013 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merya (Post 58071943)
I think there is an anti-fenno conspirazy here. :P ;)

I don't think so at all. With or without smileys.


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