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-   -   P.K Subban Thread 4.0 - Still Unsigned Edition (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1327565)

overlords 01-19-2013 06:09 PM

P.K Subban Thread 4.0 - Still Unsigned Edition
 
continue here.

Whitesnake 01-19-2013 06:11 PM

People should just stop with this "it's a team sport". It's a team sport filled with players that are paid a lot, and others who aren't paid that much. There are stars in a team, and there are fillers. It's a team sport, but if Jonathan Quick isn't brillant, this team doesn't win the Cup last year as much as THE TEAM won it....And every other example like that. If you remove Subban from the team and can't add nothing significant, YOUR TEAM won't be as good. And Subban will prove that he's 5M $ worth. Not sure, but we did substract Gomez and his salary even if he, alone, wasn't the only liability on this team.

You decide how good YOUR TEAM will be based on the INDIVIDUALS making it.

hockeyfan2k11 01-19-2013 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble (Post 57863937)
Our PK was one of the best in the league and Gorges was directly responsible for that. Last season he made Subbans defensive game look a lot better than it was and had the best +/- on the team. If Gorges needs to step up Subban needs a jet pack up his ass.

Subban crossing his arms and acting like a child who can't get his way while the games that decide this teams future are being played. Sounds like a 10yr old to me.

So every player negotiating a contract is a child? I know you're a company man and defend the GM to the death (re: your relentless defense of Gauthier) but this is just downright silly. It takes two sides to negotiate, but you seem to think Subban's all to blame for this situation. Get real.

hockeyfan2k11 01-19-2013 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whitesnake (Post 57866493)
People should just stop with this "it's a team sport". It's a team sport filled with players that are paid a lot, and others who aren't paid that much. There are stars in a team, and there are fillers. It's a team sport, but if Jonathan Quick isn't brillant, this team doesn't win the Cup last year as much as THE TEAM won it....And every other example like that. If you remove Subban from the team and can't add nothing significant, YOUR TEAM won't be as good. And Subban will prove that he's 5M $ worth. Not sure, but we did substract Gomez and his salary even if he, alone, wasn't the only liability on this team.

You decide how good YOUR TEAM will be based on the INDIVIDUALS making it.

What's bothersome is how some act like Subban should sign the 1st deal offered "for the sake of the team".

habsfanatics 01-19-2013 06:16 PM

Blindly following management hasn't really paid off now has it? Anyone who follows this hockey club should know that incompetent management exists at all levels.

Of course the vets are going to wear the letters, that's the way it's always been, unless you're generational talent, the vets get the letters. Players openly whining in public is the exact opposite of solid leadership.



How someone could infer that I said PK is a generational talent and should be wearing the C from the post above is beyond me.

You seemed to attempt to infer a fair amount, since you responded to absolutely nothing I said and made up a bunch of crap.

onebighockeyfan 01-19-2013 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whitesnake (Post 57866493)
People should just stop with this "it's a team sport". It's a team sport filled with players that are paid a lot, and others who aren't paid that much. There are stars in a team, and there are fillers. It's a team sport, but if Jonathan Quick isn't brillant, this team doesn't win the Cup last year as much as THE TEAM won it....And every other example like that. If you remove Subban from the team and can't add nothing significant, YOUR TEAM won't be as good. And Subban will prove that he's 5M $ worth. Not sure, but we did substract Gomez and his salary even if he, alone, wasn't the only liability on this team.

You decide how good YOUR TEAM will be based on the INDIVIDUALS making it.

Like the NYR the last 15 years?

Whitesnake 01-19-2013 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hockeyfan2k11 (Post 57866695)
What's bothersome is how some act like Subban should sign the 1st deal offered "for the sake of the team".

I do think that it does "seem" that PK's demands are unreasonable. That even to start with a Doughty type of contract, IF TRUE, made no sense so to get closer to what's more logical, well there's a big gap there.

But personnally, I don't buy Bergevin's position either IF TRUE. He is a player of exception. He is playing a tough position. We have nobody else like him right now on the team and in the pool.

We already knew that the idea would be that our most promising players like Subban, MaxPac and Price would be the guys that would be paid more. You just accelerate the pace for Subban and in the end, frankly, chances are we will pay less compared to what Subban could ask after the supposed bridge contract. I know though that Bergevin has to work with a lower cap next year. So you do hope that if Subban REALLY is to try to gain as many years as possible, he'll give some money on the other end to reduce the blow on next year's cap.

In the end, they HAD to come to an agreement whatever means necessary. If the player is too tough, too demanding, won't move and you hate his guts, trade the guy and move on. Be sure you get an incredible return but you would have IF it would have happened prior to the well-known problems we're having right now.

Whitesnake 01-19-2013 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan (Post 57866999)
Like the NYR the last 15 years?

What GREAT individuals did they have? Not talking about the names here....the performances. Aside from Lundqvist. You can name Philly too though you will be disregarding the goalie position which again proves my point. A GREAT goalie in Philly makes them win cups. Not a an average goalie who happens to be A GOOD TEAM PLAYER.

Game starts with A GREAT GOALIE and then move from the backhand. Does Boston win the Cup without Chara? or even without Thomas' miracles? Would Boston win with just a great team concept and great Julien system? And I like Julien but the answer is obviously no.

NotProkofievian 01-19-2013 06:27 PM

I thought Gorges comments were all pretty off-base, without going into the fact that it's none of his business, or the fact that he knows what Montreal media would do with such information.

hockeyfan2k11 01-19-2013 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whitesnake (Post 57867253)
I do think that it does "seem" that PK's demands are unreasonable. That even to start with a Doughty type of contract, IF TRUE, made no sense so to get closer to what's more logical, well there's a big gap there.

But personnally, I don't buy Bergevin's position either IF TRUE. He is a player of exception. He is playing a tough position. We have nobody else like him right now on the team and in the pool.

We already knew that the idea would be that our most promising players like Subban, MaxPac and Price would be the guys that would be paid more. You just accelerate the pace for Subban and in the end, frankly, chances are we will pay less compared to what Subban could ask after the supposed bridge contract. I know though that Bergevin has to work with a lower cap next year. So you do hope that if Subban REALLY is to try to gain as many years as possible, he'll give some money on the other end to reduce the blow on next year's cap.

In the end, they HAD to come to an agreement whatever means necessary. If the player is too tough, too demanding, won't move and you hate his guts, trade the guy and move on. Be sure you get an incredible return but you would have IF it would have happened prior to the well-known problems we're having right now.

We really don't know what he was asking or what the Habs offered. If he wanted Doughty money then that's ridiculous, but it is a starting point. If PK wants a long term deal for over 5M and the Habs want a 2 year deal <4M then I can see why he's not playing today. I do think Habs should have started negotiating a lot sooner than they did but what can you do now. PK's not the only unsigned FA right now.

Trading him would be a huge mistake IMO.

onebighockeyfan 01-19-2013 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by habsfanatics (Post 57866873)
Blindly following management hasn't really paid off now has it? Anyone who follows this hockey club should know that incompetent management exists at all levels.

Of course the vets are going to wear the letters, that's the way it's always been, unless you're generational talent, the vets get the letters. Players openly whining in public is the exact opposite of solid leadership.



How someone could infer that I said PK is a generational talent and should be wearing the C from the post above is beyond me.

You seemed to attempt to infer a fair amount, since you responded to absolutely nothing I said and made up a bunch of crap.

Your are pretty agressive. Relax man. Here are my thoughts on your comments:

Anyone who follows this hockey club should know that incompetent management exists at all levels.

The way you phrased this can be interpreted as the current management is incompetent at all levels. Concerning the discussion on this thread this was the logical interpretation. I am not sure if that's the case. I agree that the Habs have had management issues in the last 20 years but there's been some success, especially before that. And I am not sure what you mean by all people following management blindly not paying off. That makes no sense since you have to follow management, there no way around that. Unless again you mean something completely different.

How someone could infer that I said PK is a generational talent and should be wearing the C from the post above is beyond me.

That's my bad. I was hinting at the fact that PK and his agent might think he's a generational talent hence why this is not being resolved in a timely manner.

Lafleurs Guy 01-19-2013 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whitesnake (Post 57866493)
People should just stop with this "it's a team sport". It's a team sport filled with players that are paid a lot, and others who aren't paid that much. There are stars in a team, and there are fillers. It's a team sport, but if Jonathan Quick isn't brillant, this team doesn't win the Cup last year as much as THE TEAM won it....And every other example like that. If you remove Subban from the team and can't add nothing significant, YOUR TEAM won't be as good. And Subban will prove that he's 5M $ worth. Not sure, but we did substract Gomez and his salary even if he, alone, wasn't the only liability on this team.

You decide how good YOUR TEAM will be based on the INDIVIDUALS making it.

Definitely true.

That being said, we have no idea what's going on behind the negotiating table here. All we can do is speculate and based on past history I think Meehan is the real problem here. Seems like all of his clients like to sit out...

I don't feel comfortable choosing one side or the other. I definitely think Subban is a five million dollar player at this point as he's a legit first pairing defender right now. Not a star but definitely a 1st pairing guy. But there are cap implications here and I'm sure it's more complicated than just how much he's worth as the Canadiens are trying to manage the cap and set precedent for future negotiations with RFAs.

This is par for the course man. Every team is going to have to deal with this at some point. Just our misfortune that Meehan is representing PK. He'll be signed and this will all be forgotten.

onebighockeyfan 01-19-2013 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whitesnake (Post 57867389)
What GREAT individuals did they have? Not talking about the names here....the performances. Aside from Lundqvist. You can name Philly too though you will be disregarding the goalie position which again proves my point. A GREAT goalie in Philly makes them win cups. Not a an average goalie who happens to be A GOOD TEAM PLAYER.

Game starts with A GREAT GOALIE and then move from the backhand. Does Boston win the Cup without Chara? or even without Thomas' miracles? Would Boston win with just a great team concept and great Julien system? And I like Julien but the answer is obviously no.

You need a few GREAT players and a great TEAM. They go together.

habsfanatics 01-19-2013 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan (Post 57867629)
Your are pretty agressive. Relax man. Here are my thoughts on your comments:

Anyone who follows this hockey club should know that incompetent management exists at all levels.

The way you phrased this can be interpreted as the current management is incompetent at all levels. Concerning the discussion on this thread this was the logical interpretation. I am not sure if that's the case. I agree that the Habs have had management issues in the last 20 years but there's been some success, especially before that. And I am not sure what you mean by all people following management blindly not paying off. That makes no sense since you have to follow management, there no way around that. Unless again you mean something completely different.

How someone could infer that I said PK is a generational talent and should be wearing the C from the post above is beyond me.

That's my bad. I was hinting at the fact that PK and his agent might think he's a generational talent hence why this is not being resolved in a timely manner.

I'm not intending to be aggressive, but i don't like my posts being misrepresented, I can see how the first portion wasn't exactly written in a clear manner, but anyone should know that a few months on the job is too soon to judge a new management team.

My point was, the idea that, because those are the professionals and we should just trust them isn't necessarily true and has been proven false 100 times over, especially here and TO.

the 01-19-2013 06:35 PM

And some people said this night would never happen loll

Kriss E 01-19-2013 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan (Post 57867837)
You need a few GREAT players and a great TEAM. They go together.

Letting your BEST GREAT player at home is a bad way to start.

habsfanatics 01-19-2013 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kriss E (Post 57868377)
Letting your BEST GREAT player at home is a bad way to start.

Well-said.

habsfanatics 01-19-2013 06:41 PM

Can't wait for the Don Cherry PK bashing. Anyone else excited?

Habnot 01-19-2013 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kriss E (Post 57868377)
Letting your BEST GREAT player at home is a bad way to start.

Agreed not great but at this point PK doesn't owe Montreal squat. Love him or hate him, he has no contract and without knowing the specifics of the proposal it is absolutely his right to try to maximize his deal.

Owners had no issue locking out players to better their business - why is there a double standard for a player?

onebighockeyfan 01-19-2013 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by habsfanatics (Post 57868681)
Can't wait for the Don Cherry PK bashing. Anyone else excited?

Not sure I'm looking forward to this. It might all of us look a little less crazy :)

habsfanatics 01-19-2013 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan (Post 57869893)
Not sure I'm looking forward to this. It might all of us look a little less crazy :)

True that.

Nashy 01-19-2013 07:06 PM

If a certain D-man on the Habs go down to injury.....then Bergevin better get ready to sharpen the hell out of his pencil.

loudi94 01-19-2013 07:19 PM

You know right this minute, he's all eaten up inside missing what's on the ice.

Whitesnake 01-19-2013 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onebighockeyfan (Post 57867837)
You need a few GREAT players and a great TEAM. They go together.

Great players form great teams. You can be as tight as you want and play an incredible system, if you have average talent....you won't win. But you could form a team filled with great players that while not having the best team ever or even the best system....will end up winning. Just go back to our last 2 cups. Even if it's a different era, it's a clear example. If the system, makes the team. And the system is made by the coach. You had Jean Perron winning a cup. And other better coaches, who yet, ended up being fired 2 or 3 years after. But the best players stayed the best players.

Alexdaman 01-19-2013 07:38 PM



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