HFBoards

HFBoards (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/index.php)
-   Toronto Maple Leafs (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/forumdisplay.php?f=17)
-   -   +/- Kessel (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1328293)

Srsly 01-20-2013 01:03 PM

+/- Kessel
 
Kessel has traditionally been a - minus player but our team has never been that great defensively so it's hard to judge him.
I have a bit of a question regarding the stat in general. If Kessel has two assists than how is he +0 for the year on nhl.com when Montreal only scored once last night? I always thought +/- was the comparison of goals for vs against. Could someone enlighten me? Shouldn't he be +1? How does the stat work? :help:
http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id...vid=nhl-search

Sokil 01-20-2013 01:05 PM

points on the power play don't count towards +/-, and all goals for both teams last night were on the PP

Srsly 01-20-2013 01:06 PM

Thanks, in retrospect it sort of makes me facepalm a little. I guess I've forgotten a lot in the last year.

CanadasTeam 01-20-2013 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Srsly (Post 57941527)
Kessel has traditionally been a - minus player but our team has never been that great defensively so it's hard to judge him.
I have a bit of a question regarding the stat in general. If Kessel has two assists than how is he +0 for the year on nhl.com when Montreal only scored once last night? I always thought +/- was the comparison of goals for vs against. Could someone enlighten me? Shouldn't he be +1? How does the stat work? :help:
http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id...vid=nhl-search

BTW, Kessel has never been a minus player in his whole career... at least not until he joined the Leafs.

conway902 01-20-2013 01:20 PM

Shows how dumb the stat can be at times. You could 5 power play points in a 5-1 win and end out -1

Sokil 01-20-2013 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CanadasTeam (Post 57942301)
BTW, Kessel has never been a minus player in his whole career... at least not until he joined the Leafs.

http://i.imgur.com/DPR6IXl.png

Sokil 01-20-2013 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by conway902 (Post 57942993)
Shows how dumb the stat can be at times. You could 5 power play points in a 5-1 win and end out -1

don't se how it's dumb in that regard, it's an even strength stat. Wouldn't make sense to say you're +4 in that game (indicating defensive reliability) when all of your points came when you were outnumbering the opposition

CanadasTeam 01-20-2013 01:27 PM

sorry my bad, misquoted as it was Tyler Bozak who had never been a minus player per this article:

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2011/...n-over-flames/

7even 01-20-2013 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sokil (Post 57943163)
don't se how it's dumb in that regard, it's an even strength stat. Wouldn't make sense to say you're +4 in that game (indicating defensive reliability) when all of your points came when you were outnumbering the opposition

Maybe not, but it's a dumb stat in general.

King Mapes 01-20-2013 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Srsly (Post 57941737)
Thanks, in retrospect it sort of makes me facepalm a little. I guess I've forgotten a lot in the last year.

But if its shorthanded it does count for obvious reasons

King Mapes 01-20-2013 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sokil (Post 57943163)
don't se how it's dumb in that regard, it's an even strength stat. Wouldn't make sense to say you're +4 in that game (indicating defensive reliability) when all of your points came when you were outnumbering the opposition

And looking at it the other way, why would you get a minus when you are outnumbered?

It makes sence

I remember one time we won big (8-3 or something) and Lebda (I think it was) was minus 3.

Anyone remember that and can give proper details?

EDIT: looked it up. 9-3 win over Winnipeg, 0 points -3 stat line :laugh:

mapleleaf979 01-20-2013 01:31 PM

Kessel can do better in one on one battles. On the half wall , the corners or behind the net, he could really improve this area of his game. Last night he rarely won any of those battle area situations. It jumped out at me. Im sure this must bother the coach. His blazing speed and shot offset these areas. He might be the weakest Leaf player in these battle areas, yet the best and most dangerous when the puck gets on his stick

Sokil 01-20-2013 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mapes (Post 57943639)
And looking at it the other way, why would you get a minus when you are outnumbered?

It makes sence

Plus you put out your better defensive players on the PK, so it's like having your stats punished for being good defensively

Personally, I wish there was a split for goalies for PK and even strength. They get it the worst. Team takes a bunch of 5-on-3s and all of a sudden they look like bums.

cyris 01-20-2013 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mapes (Post 57943639)
And looking at it the other way, why would you get a minus when you are outnumbered?

It makes sence

I remember one time we won big (8-3 or something) and Lebda (I think it was) was minus 3.

Anyone remember that and can give proper details?

EDIT: looked it up. 9-3 win over Winnipeg, 0 points -3 stat line :laugh:

It was Atlanta not Winnipeg and in fairness the leafs scored 5 or 6 of those goals on the powerplay.

King Mapes 01-20-2013 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyris (Post 57945847)
It was Atlanta not Winnipeg and in fairness the leafs scored 5 or 6 of those goals on the powerplay.

It said Winnipeg, forgot that was Thrashers last year

Either way, still an awesome stat line.

Kingstonian84* 01-20-2013 08:13 PM

Look at this way Kessel was leading forwards in the NHL last year for being on the ice for goals against, that should tell you something about his defensive abilities.

emackulate 01-20-2013 08:26 PM

i believe if you took away the games they played against boston, he would be a plus player. those 6 games hurt everyone on the leafs.

RogerRoeper* 01-20-2013 08:48 PM

+/- is a team stat. Kessel's last year in Boston he was +23.

Zdeno Chara went from the NHl's worst +/-, to the best in one season. The reason? He left bottom feeder the Islanders and joined the contending Sens.

Sokil 01-20-2013 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RogerRoeper (Post 57979795)
+/- is a team stat.

If it's a team stat then so are assists. It's a situational stat.

The Podium 01-20-2013 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sokil (Post 57991475)
If it's a team stat then so are assists. It's a situational stat.

A good defensive player infront of a bad goalie or in a bad defensive system will have a bad +/- which is why its considered a team stat.

Sokil 01-20-2013 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Podium (Post 57991799)
A good defensive player infront of a bad goalie or in a bad defensive system will have a bad +/- which is why its considered a team stat.

That's just your opinion. If it was a team stat, it wouldn't exist on a player's stat-line. It's a situational stat, like RBIs in baseball.

The Podium 01-20-2013 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sokil (Post 57991943)
That's just your opinion. If it was a team stat, it wouldn't exist on a player's stat-line. It's a situational stat, like RBIs in baseball.

WTF are you talking about:laugh:

a good defensive player on a team thats -33 is going to have a tough time having a better +/- on a team thats +33.... a defensive D would be the best example. If a defensive D is on the ice hes likely not producing offence. If the forwards are not producing offence than there is a very high chance that more goals will be scored against than for regardless of how good you are defensively.

Tomas Plekanec one of the better defensive forwards in the league was -15 on a terrible Montreal then you have someone like David Perron, not known for his D play and was +19 on a strong St. Louis

Duke Silver 01-20-2013 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sokil (Post 57991943)
That's just your opinion. If it was a team stat, it wouldn't exist on a player's stat-line. It's a situational stat, like RBIs in baseball.

If +/- was a useful stat, Jeff Schultz would have won a Norris trophy.

It's an atrociously misleading stat. You could step on the ice for five seconds without touching the puck, be scored on, and be given a -1. Conversely, you could step on the ice during a breakaway goal and be given a +1. In neither case did you have any bearing on the goal scored.

There are far more useful statistical measures to determine a player's defensive ability.

This argument that +/- is in some way a useful individual stat has been shot down so many times.

Bomber0104 01-20-2013 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sokil (Post 57991943)
That's just your opinion. If it was a team stat, it wouldn't exist on a player's stat-line. It's a situational stat, like RBIs in baseball.

I find it to be a worthwhile stat when you compare guys on the same team.

For example, Kessel was a -10 while Clarke Macarthur was a +2 on the same team, and with the first line scoring much more than the second.

Indicates that the first line was terrible defensively.

Kessel easily puts in the least amount of effort defensively between him Lupul and Bozie.

So we can arrive at the conclusion that Phil Kessel is one of the worst defensive top-six players in the league.

Pretty open and shut.

leafsfuture 01-20-2013 11:17 PM

Which is exactly why Kessel plays his best with Tyler Bozak down the middle


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:50 AM.

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com, A property of CraveOnline, a division of AtomicOnline LLC ©2009 CraveOnline Media, LLC. All Rights Reserved.