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-   -   Top 10 Finnish players of all time. (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1329795)

Merya 01-22-2013 05:42 AM

Top 10 Finnish players of all time.
 
I'd be very interested in seeing what the knowledgeable members of the HoH people would rank as top 10 Finnish players of all time. I'll submit my own list later, because I don't want to influence the outcome right away. Obviously the list might differ quite alot depending on familiarity with Finnish hockey.

RorschachWJK 01-22-2013 06:01 AM

NHL:

1. Teemu Selänne
2. Jari Kurri
3. Teppo Numminen
4. Esa Tikkanen
5. Saku Koivu
6. Jere Lehtinen
7. Kimmo Timonen
8. Reijo Ruotsalainen
9. Olli Jokinen
10. Jyrki Lumme

If international games are taken into account, this gets more complicated.

Edit: not sure about the knowledgeable part but submitted my list anyway ;-)

ficohok* 01-22-2013 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RorschachWJK (Post 58070665)
NHL:

1. Teemu Selänne
2. Jari Kurri
3. Teppo Numminen
4. Esa Tikkanen
5. Saku Koivu
6. Jere Lehtinen
7. Kimmo Timonen
8. Reijo Ruotsalainen
9. Olli Jokinen
10. Jyrki Lumme

If international games are taken into account, this gets more complicated.

Edit: not sure about the knowledgeable part but submitted my list anyway ;-)

Then probably Ville Peltonen and Petteri Nummelin are in top10.

Hobnobs 01-22-2013 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RorschachWJK (Post 58070665)
NHL:

1. Teemu Selänne
2. Jari Kurri
3. Teppo Numminen
4. Esa Tikkanen
5. Saku Koivu
6. Jere Lehtinen
7. Kimmo Timonen
8. Reijo Ruotsalainen
9. Olli Jokinen
10. Jyrki Lumme

If international games are taken into account, this gets more complicated.

Edit: not sure about the knowledgeable part but submitted my list anyway ;-)

If international play is involved I would take Peltonen and Myllys over Jokinen and Lumme. They simply did more for finnish hockey.

Rob Scuderi 01-22-2013 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hobnobs (Post 58071113)
If international play is involved I would take Peltonen and Myllys over Jokinen and Lumme. They simply did more for finnish hockey.

Would Myllys be better/more significant than Ylonen and Valtonen considering international play?

Merya 01-22-2013 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi (Post 58071203)
Would Myllys be better/more significant than Ylonen and Valtonen considering international play?

No. Urpo Ylönen is probably the best Finnish goaltender of all time, compared to peers. And he was a heck of a goaliecoack as well.
Myllys isn't really even in my top 5 or maybe ten of finnish international goalies. He was flashy tho, but I'll never forgive letting Bure score 5 yeasy goals on him in 1998 when with a good goalie we would've buried the czechs and won Olympic gold. Sulander should've been the number one goalie by then.

TheDevilMadeMe 01-22-2013 07:05 AM

I think Kiprusoff gives Numminen serious competition for #3

And there has to be a case Mikko Koivu over Jokinen by now

Merya 01-22-2013 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 58071361)
I think Kiprusoff gives Numminen serious competition for #3

And there has to be a case Mikko Koivu over Jokinen by now

Mikko Koivu is way Past OJ by now, based on international play. As fo Kiprusoff above Numminen, I'd say no. But then, I think Kipper is a bit overrated.

TAnnala 01-22-2013 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merya (Post 58071469)
Mikko Koivu is way Past OJ by now, based on international play. As fo Kiprusoff above Numminen, I'd say no. But then, I think Kipper is a bit overrated.

I agree that Mikko is and definitely should be considered the better Finnish player than OJ.

OJ has left kind of bland taste in Fininsh mouths. People who don't follow NHL hockey too carefully don't know that OJ has that 90+ point season and that he was great/elite player in Florida. He has been a huge dissapointment in few past years in the national team and in Finland that is what matters most.

Selanne and Kurri are competing for the #1 spot and frankly, either could take it. Personally i prefer Selanne but i have heard some compelling cases over Kurri too. he was money in the play-offs and has multiple cups. He played solid two-way game which is actually not a strong suit for Selanne.

Merya 01-22-2013 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TAnnala (Post 58071585)
Selanne and Kurri are competing for the #1 spot and frankly, either could take it. Personally i prefer Selanne but i have heard some compelling cases over Kurri too. he was money in the play-offs and has multiple cups. He played solid two-way game which is actually not a strong suit for Selanne.

Selänne's defensive play is largely underrated, like is often for his style of players. Actually Selänne is underrated in pretty much every category except goalscoring and PP scoring. He gets takeaways consistently, he makes a nice hit when there's an opportunity, and his hockeyvision last season was probably one of the best. His plays just seem too easy. But at least on PP, he always seems to be in the right spot.
The fun thing for me to watch about Teemu nowadays is, that he doesn't really need to move much. He seems like harmless bum, but then makes a PP goal.
I don't think Kurri can compete. He had 8 years of elite hockey, and then should've become a great 3rd line center...but he didn't. His latter years are rather sad to watch. Selänne otoh bounced back from total knee reconstruction into one of the best players in the league. And even last season had the best points in that awful Anaheim team.

Rob Scuderi 01-22-2013 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merya (Post 58071291)
No. Urpo Ylönen is probably the best Finnish goaltender of all time, compared to peers. And he was a heck of a goaliecoack as well.
Myllys isn't really even in my top 5 or maybe ten of finnish international goalies. He was flashy tho, but I'll never forgive letting Bure score 5 yeasy goals on him in 1998 when with a good goalie we would've buried the czechs and won Olympic gold. Sulander should've been the number one goalie by then.

Really appreciate the insight.

If this list were done with less of a North American focus, I'd imagine these guys would get a lot of support. How many of them are top 10 worthy?

Pekka Rautakallio (are he or Timonen the best defender?)
Matti Hagman
Raimo Helminen
Veli-Pekka Ketola
Lasse Oksanen
Pekka Marjamaki

Merya 01-22-2013 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi (Post 58072135)
Really appreciate the insight.

If this list were done with less of a North American focus, I'd imagine these guys would get a lot of support. How many of them are top 10 worthy?

Pekka Rautakallio (are he or Timonen the best defender?)
Matti Hagman
Raimo Helminen
Veli-Pekka Ketola
Lasse Oksanen
Pekka Marjamaki

Well. Matti Hagman is the best Finnish center to ever play the game. He was better than Mess, but got overshadowed by Gretzky obviously. There are quotes of him given by his team mates from when he was in Edmonton.
Raimo Helminen is a legend in Finnish hockey, but not in the top ten. I think he lacked the drive to become 100%
Rautakallio, Ketola, Marjamäki and Oksanen (along with many others) are first truly great finnish players. Rautakallio in modern times would be like Pronger. Ketola like Getzlaf. But these guys were playing hockey as a hobby.

Helminen with modern training could've been a Thornton or Oates, except he was always bit lazy.
Matti Hagman, with his skillset, and modern training would probably be the best player in the NHL.

Merya 01-22-2013 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi (Post 58072135)
Pekka Rautakallio (are he or Timonen the best defender?)


Teppo Numminen is probably the best.

RorschachWJK 01-22-2013 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe (Post 58071361)
I think Kiprusoff gives Numminen serious competition for #3

And there has to be a case Mikko Koivu over Jokinen by now

Forgot to mention that I only did skaters. But yeah, Kiprusoff would be high on the list although not that high in my books.

Like someone said, if international play counts, then Mikko is already past Jokinen.

RorschachWJK 01-22-2013 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CroHabitant (Post 58070865)
Then probably Ville Peltonen and Petteri Nummelin are in top10.

Yes, and a bunch of others too, at least on the bubble.

Rob Scuderi 01-22-2013 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merya (Post 58072453)
Well. Matti Hagman is the best Finnish center to ever play the game. He was better than Mess, but got overshadowed by Gretzky obviously. There are quotes of him given by his team mates from when he was in Edmonton.
Raimo Helminen is a legend in Finnish hockey, but not in the top ten. I think he lacked the drive to become 100%
Rautakallio, Ketola, Marjamäki and Oksanen (along with many others) are first truly great finnish players. Rautakallio in modern times would be like Pronger. Ketola like Getzlaf. But these guys were playing hockey as a hobby.

Helminen with modern training could've been a Thornton or Oates, except he was always bit lazy.
Matti Hagman, with his skillset, and modern training would probably be the best player in the NHL.

Thanks again. Don't mind my oversight of Numminen wasn't thinking.

pdd 01-22-2013 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merya (Post 58071789)
I don't think Kurri can compete. He had 8 years of elite hockey, and then should've become a great 3rd line center...but he didn't. His latter years are rather sad to watch. Selänne otoh bounced back from total knee reconstruction into one of the best players in the league. And even last season had the best points in that awful Anaheim team.

Kurri at an was unreal level in Edmonton. He doesn't get nearly enough credit for his performance. And then he moved on, and was still successful. Even in 1992-93, teammates again with Gretzky. Gretzky was injured half of the season, and Kurri played as the first-line center.
After that, his coaches pushed him to play in a much more defensive role on checking lines. He could have put up better career scoring numbers had he insisted upon playing on a scoring line in those years (and had he eschewed defense throughout his career), but he wanted to do what was best for his team.

TAnnala 01-22-2013 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eva unit zero (Post 58074359)
Kurri at an was unreal level in Edmonton. He doesn't get nearly enough credit for his performance. And then he moved on, and was still successful. Even in 1992-93, teammates again with Gretzky. Gretzky was injured half of the season, and Kurri played as the first-line center.
After that, his coaches pushed him to play in a much more defensive role on checking lines. He could have put up better career scoring numbers had he insisted upon playing on a scoring line in those years (and had he eschewed defense throughout his career), but he wanted to do what was best for his team.

I agree with a lot of this.

But it is true that Kurri fell of the map pretty quickly. But when he was playing his best hockey it was pretty damn good. He scored a lot goals and was always a clutch player. Having the record for goals in play-off's is a pretty good indicator of this. He was also a lot better two-way player than Selanne. No matter how underrated Selanne is in that regard Kurri was still the more resbonsible player of the two.
Someone said in this board, can't remember it exactly, that Kurri allowing Gretzky to ignore defensive play was the biggest unrecorded offensive contribution of the 80's.

I still pick Selanne first but i do get why some, especially NA people, rank Kurri higher.

tony d 01-22-2013 11:17 AM

Top 5:

1) Selanne
2) Kurri
3) Numminen
4) Kiprusoff
5) Lehtinen

the edler 01-22-2013 12:14 PM

guys calm down, Teppo Numminen was a very good player but third best finnish player ever? not a chance in my book, this shouldn't be a competition on how many NHL games a player played, Numminen was never one of the 5 best defenders in a season, perhaps he was a top 10 defenseman for a year or two? or was he even that? :dunno: all i know is if Teppo Numminen was your teams best defenceman your team was very average, he's very Calle Johansson-ish, and that's not a compliment were i come from

Jere Lehtinen has 3 Selke's and was a vital cog on a cup winner who won back to back president's trophies, and he was super solid in International play with 4 Olympic medals and a World Championship, he was easily a more impactful player than Numminen

I would also rank Saku Koivu ahead of Numminen, he was awesome in the Olympics|International play and like his friend Trevor Linden he was a heart and soul captain who raised his game in the playoffs and he was very talented too, but unfortunatelty also a fragile smurf

i almost forgot, Esa Tikkanen was also better than Numminen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merya (Post 58071291)
Myllys isn't really even in my top 5 or maybe ten of finnish international goalies. He was flashy tho, but I'll never forgive letting Bure score 5 yeasy goals on him in 1998 when with a good goalie we would've buried the czechs and won Olympic gold. Sulander should've been the number one goalie by then.

Bure only scored 4 goals on Myllys, on the fifth goal Jarmo was out on the bench

but Bure was the best goal scorer in the world at this time so if you really think Ari Sulander would have made much difference then .... well i don't know

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merya (Post 58072453)
Well. Matti Hagman is the best Finnish center to ever play the game. He was better than Mess, but got overshadowed by Gretzky obviously. There are quotes of him given by his team mates from when he was in Edmonton.
Raimo Helminen is a legend in Finnish hockey, but not in the top ten. I think he lacked the drive to become 100%
Rautakallio, Ketola, Marjamäki and Oksanen (along with many others) are first truly great finnish players. Rautakallio in modern times would be like Pronger. Ketola like Getzlaf. But these guys were playing hockey as a hobby.

Helminen with modern training could've been a Thornton or Oates, except he was always bit lazy.
Matti Hagman, with his skillset, and modern training would probably be the best player in the NHL.

hyperbole much?

Carbooja 01-22-2013 12:58 PM

I watched Teppo first hand for several years, Selanne and Kurri as well.

There is a reason why he's number 3 on the list, his defensive IQ was off the charts, you could not measure his greatness with stats. Many players over the years mentioned how great he really was, the man they called 'Repo man'

Slapshooter 01-22-2013 01:04 PM

If we consider primes only, then Kurri is as good choice as Selanne. When ranking players careerwise there is hardly any competition for Selanne as the best Finnish player. The problem with Kurri is that he did not age well, despite apparently being physically in good condition. It was 1995 or so when Kurri just lost his once great shooting skill and much of his goal scoring instinct. He could barely shoot the puck anymore in late 90's, which is weird, since Kurri used to have one of the best shots in the league during 80's.

quoipourquoi 01-22-2013 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the edler (Post 58084105)
Bure only scored 4 goals on Myllys, on the fifth goal Jarmo was out on the bench

but Bure was the best goal scorer in the world at this time so if you really think Ari Sulander would have made much difference then .... well i don't know

Hyperbole much?

Sanf 01-22-2013 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merya (Post 58071291)
No. Urpo Ylönen is probably the best Finnish goaltender of all time, compared to peers. And he was a heck of a goaliecoack as well.
Myllys isn't really even in my top 5 or maybe ten of finnish international goalies. He was flashy tho, but I'll never forgive letting Bure score 5 yeasy goals on him in 1998 when with a good goalie we would've buried the czechs and won Olympic gold. Sulander should've been the number one goalie by then.

I would be very intrested to know who would you rank above Myllys if he is not even in your top ten. I´m not going to torture myself and look clips from that Russia match, but painfull memories tell me that there were atleast three (or four?) breakaways to Bure from horrible defensemen mistakes? Thats not really a winning strategy nomather whos in goal.

If Myllys had been in goal in 1994 Lillehammer semifinal against Canada we would have taken gold from there. ;)

Leafsdude7 01-22-2013 03:17 PM

1) Jari Kurri
2) Teemu Selanne
3) Miikka Kiprusoff
4) Jere Lehtinen
5) Saku Koivu
6) Teppo Numminen
7) Raimo Helminen
8) Sami Kapanen
9) Ville Peltonen
10) Kimmo Timonen

Somewhat modern biased, I'm sure. I'm not all that well-versed on the guys that played in the '70 through early-90s. All I know is that Christian Ruuttu probably wouldn't make any top-10. :laugh:

I don't think Mikko Koivu has done enough to be on this list yet, and Olli Jokinen, while good, isn't quite in the truly elite level that most of these guys were/are.


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