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-   -   2 Finnish players tested for positive in drug test (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1330161)

Zeitung 01-22-2013 02:51 PM

2 Finnish players tested for positive in drug test
 
2 Finnish players tested positive for cannabis before WHC 2012. Test was held by their KHL-team and team Finland's head coach Jukka Jalonen was informed about this. How ever he did nothing, and nearly a year after media was told the truth. Quite interesting acting by team Finland.

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/124...verforget2.jpg

vsk92 01-22-2013 03:34 PM

:laugh:

puff puff pass… se kiekko :P

Joe MacMillan 01-22-2013 04:23 PM

Misleading title since "drugs" could be interpreted a lot of ways. They were caught smoking weed. During the Christmas break prior to the tournament. And were allowed to finish the season by their respective KHL teams regardless.

No big deal. It's not like weed is a performance enhancing substitute. Ethically it's no bigger evil than alcohol (IMO of course).

Here's the source (in Finnish):

http://www.hs.fi/urheilu/Jalonen+ott...a1305640603853

Zeitung 01-22-2013 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeepers Creeper (Post 58099091)
Misleading title since "drugs" could be interpreted a lot of ways. They were caught smoking weed. During the Christmas break prior to the tournament. And were allowed to finish the season by their respective KHL teams regardless.

No big deal. It's not like weed is a performance enhancing substitute. Ethically it's no bigger evil than alcohol (IMO of course).

Here's the source (in Finnish):

http://www.hs.fi/urheilu/Jalonen+ott...a1305640603853

True to that, but you will see how big thing it will be in media. And in the text it is said which drug they tested positive for. Two players from same team and playing in KHL, only one option here.

FinRuutu 01-22-2013 04:48 PM

http://i.imgur.com/sEFv6db.jpg

Fin9* 01-22-2013 07:08 PM

Whats the harm on the green? ;)

This is your perus IL gibbering. Top news: ´´Two lion players were found positive about using drugs´´ :shakehead

Then when you acutally press the big thing starring at your eyes what seems to be the most read thing on the day, its says ´´kannabis`` i start laughing.

FiLe 01-23-2013 04:13 AM

So... two players tested positive for some weed five months before the games?

Next newspiece, thanks.


Okay, maybe we will have something worth offside commentary out of Kal€'s oddly shifting stances to the issue...

Kale around noon yesterday: "Stupid move from those two."
Kale last evening: "I've no information of this, just heard of it."
Kale this morning: "Didn't f**ing happen."


At the same time, the head coach maintains it happened, he made the picks regardless and that's it.

Pellegrino 01-23-2013 05:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fin9 (Post 58109177)
Whats the harm on the green? ;)

It's still cheating. Rules are rules...

FiLe 01-23-2013 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pellegrino (Post 58147283)
It's still cheating. Rules are rules...

Actually, it's not cheating. It's a banned substance, which makes it forbidden by the rules, yes. Therefore it should not be used, at least for as long as it's on the list.

But in order to call it cheating per se, it would have to be a performance-enhancing substance... which it is not.

Gaps 01-23-2013 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pellegrino (Post 58147283)
It's still cheating. Rules are rules...

It's not cheating. It doesn't make you play any better, it actually makes you play worse than you would without it. This means that a hockey player who uses it must be a little stupid. It's a banned substance in sports, but it doesn't help.

Finnpin 01-23-2013 07:30 AM

KHL club said that this is false news. Finnish hockey federation will also make a press release.

Pellegrino 01-23-2013 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FiLe (Post 58147569)
Actually, it's not cheating. It's a banned substance, which makes it forbidden by the rules, yes. Therefore it should not be used, at least for as long as it's on the list.

But in order to call it cheating per se, it would have to be a performance-enhancing substance... which it is not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaps (Post 58147745)
It's not cheating. It doesn't make you play any better, it actually makes you play worse than you would without it. This means that a hockey player who uses it must be a little stupid. It's a banned substance in sports, but it doesn't help.

I'm not suggesting that cannabis improves performance, however it's a banned substance, and any taking of banned substances is cheating. I don't see how there can be another definition as long it's banned.

Players who are proven guilty of taking banned substances must be suspended, as that's also according to the rules.

I've no idea if those players, whoever they are, are guilty though. Denial seems best for all parts, assuming it can't be proven as suspended players wouldn't be a positive outcome for anybody involved.

Finnpin 01-23-2013 12:38 PM

Maybe they were hanging in same hotel with Snoop Dogg and breathed/inhaled the hotel's air too heavily but like I said the KHL team where the accused players were from denied the "Urheilulehti" story... and that magazine likes to stir up things. The players and Kurri are mad atm.

FiLe 01-23-2013 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pellegrino (Post 58154865)
I'm not suggesting that cannabis improves performance, however it's a banned substance, and any taking of banned substances is cheating.

By definition of whose other than your own?

Because cheating means exactly what it means. Gaining an advantage by unfair methods. There is no advantage to be gained in sports by smoking weed. Ergo not cheating.

There are various reasons why a substance can be on the list of banned items. Sometimes it's because using it clearly gives an athlete some advantage over those who don't use it. Other times, it's there simply because it's deemed harmful and the reason for its entry is to protect the people involved. There is no need to tell which category cannabis belongs to.

Though admittedly, some substances can be classified to both at the same time, but weed is not one of them.


In order to avoid any conflict though, I guess we could just call this a wash and agree that you've simply rejected the meaning of the word and substituted your own. In which case, it would be prudent if you provided us with a list of similar words, if any, in order to avoid all this silly confusion in the future.



Of course, we're beating a dead horse already, given how in this case were apparently talking about alleged cannabis use in the first place, and now FIHA has managed to dig up the necessary test results to prove that the allegations were false.

vsk92 01-23-2013 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FiLe (Post 58163203)
There is no advantage to be gained in sports by smoking weed. Ergo not cheating.

On the trip they go on involves new tactics/moves to beat team's so therefore an advantage :sarcasm:

FiLe 01-23-2013 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vsk92 (Post 58164407)
On the trip they go on involves new tactics/moves to beat team's so therefore an advantage :sarcasm:

Heh. I s'pose.

Another could be the enhanced ability to handle the mental pressure. Imagine this: Game seven, you're trailing by two, three minutes on the clock. Some guys are starting to show their frustration. But the team's blunters just take a calm look at the coach and go, "We got this, mon, we got this... relax."

The end result is three goals in two minutes. Two with an airhook, one with a breakaway dangle that is executed while the rest of the team hums "I shot the Sheriff".

Pellegrino 01-23-2013 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FiLe (Post 58163203)
By definition of whose other than your own?

Well, what about WADA's...?

“WADA is committed to protecting the rights of clean athletes, where hard work and talent are justly recognized and doping cheats are exposed for what they are. Clean sport is fundamental to a healthy society and sets the best example for future generations of athletes.”
- John Fahey AC., WADA President

http://www.wada-ama.org/en/About-WAD...trategic-Plan/

If you take a banned substance, then you're a doping cheat. Even cannabis use result in 2 year long bans, so I don't see the irony that many others do. However, the best thing for everybody would obviously be if the accusations are simply not true.

FiLe 01-23-2013 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pellegrino (Post 58168221)
If you take a banned substance, then you're a doping cheat.

Unfortunately, there is nowhere on that site (or in the accompanying strategic plan pamphlet) that says that, word-to-word or in interchangeable manner. All it says is that WADA is set to expose doping cheats, NOT that every item on their list makes an athlete one.

Sorry. It's still nothing more than your interpretation of the message, and one that cuts corners at it.


Look, no one here's arguing that the players should be given a free pass for cannabis use. They shouldn't. What they did was wrong and definitely against the principles of clean sport. But given the nature of the substance they were using... It. Does. Not. Make. Them. Cheaters.


But since you like the quote game...

http://yle.fi/uutiset/antidopingpomo...vakava/6462670

Sorry for the source in Finnish only, but this is the chairman of the Finnish Anti-Doping committee and, citing the Anti-Doping rulebook, he echoes my sentiments, pretty much word to word. The key comments translated:

"Cannabis is a forbidden substance in professional sports, but only during competition."

"If an athlete tests positive outside competition, that leads to no further consequence."

"It is definitely taken into consideration that we're not talking about a substance here that will have a positive effect on the performance - but in fact, the opposite."


So... if you went and asked this man whether he considers these two players cheaters (if we're to assume they did smoke weed at some point), he'd probably tell you flat out that no, they aren't. End of story.

Jussi 01-23-2013 07:37 PM

There's also been talk that cannabis might get removed from WADA's lists since it is indeed not a performance enhancing drug.

Muuri 01-24-2013 08:44 AM

If true it would have been Salmela and Rämö.

Pellegrino 01-24-2013 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FiLe (Post 58174191)
Unfortunately, there is nowhere on that site (or in the accompanying strategic plan pamphlet) that says that, word-to-word or in interchangeable manner. All it says is that WADA is set to expose doping cheats, NOT that every item on their list makes an athlete one.

Sorry. It's still nothing more than your interpretation of the message, and one that cuts corners at it.

Not really. WADA clearly states that athletes who take banned substances are not clean and therefore doping cheats.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jussi (Post 58187197)
There's also been talk that cannabis might get removed from WADA's lists since it is indeed not a performance enhancing drug.

That would be interesting, can't see it happen anytime soon though.

FiLe 01-24-2013 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pellegrino (Post 58224399)
WADA clearly states that athletes who take banned substances are not clean and therefore doping cheats.

C'mon, gimme the quote. The one where WADA clearly states that the users of every banned substance on their list is a doping cheat. Because the one you added from Fahey does NOT say that.

Yes, WADA battles doping. Yes, they have a list of banned substances. But this far, we've yet to see a statement that combines the two and says that user of any substance on said list is a cheat.

But you can't find one. Because some substances on said list are NOT there because they enhance performance, but because using them would put either the athlete or people following the performance at an unnecessary risk. It makes an athlete who uses said substance (during performance) an inconsiderate being who deserves a punishment, but it does NOT make him or her a cheat.


But given how I suspect you're still going to keep insisting, here's some more food for thought: http://list.wada-ama.org/list/p1-alcohol/

So... an athlete who drinks is a cheat, then?

Pajicz 01-24-2013 02:28 PM

It's interesting that first JJ admits that he has been told about the situation, and then Kummola and co. deny it all...

vsk92 01-24-2013 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pajicz (Post 58238161)
It's interesting that first JJ admits that he has been told about the situation, and then Kummola and co. deny it all...

Only because he was stoned.

http://i2.ytimg.com/vi/9BrsySzUtEw/mqdefault.jpg

See he doesn't know where he is :sarcasm:

Jussi 01-25-2013 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pajicz (Post 58238161)
It's interesting that first JJ admits that he has been told about the situation, and then Kummola and co. deny it all...

JJ is now saying he doesn't remember whether he was informed before or after the Worlds. Curious thing is of course that there doesn't appear to have been any official information about the failed tests from the KHL club...


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