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-   -   Mario Lemieux vs Bobby Orr? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1331041)

Dangler99* 01-23-2013 02:40 PM

Mario Lemieux vs Bobby Orr?
 
Who is the better all time player? Who would you want on your team?
Can a mod add a poll?

Big Phil 01-23-2013 03:08 PM

If the question is Howe vs. Orr then I take Howe because I think if you look objectively it is impossible to say Orr had a better career when Mr. Hockey played 26 years and most of them as the best or among the top 2-3 in the game. Not to mention Howe at his peak was fantastic as well and maybe Orr was better but it isn't a deal breaker.

Enter Lemieux. He would have had Howe's career had he stayed healthy. But since he didn't I think he becomes a better comparison for Orr. Lemieux didn't even reach 1,000 games played. He retired and missed 3 and a half years of NHL where he is still probably the best player in the game or co-best with Jagr.

That being said Mario still comes very close to Orr's career. I just think at each player's best that Orr comes out on top and it isn't as if Mario has a ton of other elite seasons on top of Orr to make up for it. Throw in Orr's better all around game and I'll give it to him. Not by a heck of a lot, but enough for me to put Orr as the #3 player of all time.

TAnnala 01-23-2013 11:41 PM

Someone once wrote to the HOH-section that no matter what the poll asks, if you add Orr he is going to win.

Voted Orr, but it is close. My personal preference might have something to do with it since I am starting to get sick about Lemieux defender's who put him above Gretzky.

Both had arguably the same level peak as Gretzky and neither had longevity. Orr was just that much more impressive since he did not have his "Gretzky" before him. Without Gretzky I probably would vote for Lemieux.

TheDevilMadeMe 01-23-2013 11:43 PM

Another factor in favor of Orr - he actually had a pretty solid string of consecutive elite seasons, while Lemieux would take seasons off at a time and come back.

jigglysquishy 01-24-2013 12:23 AM

Lemieux
6 Art Rosses
3 Hart Trophies
2 Conn Smythes
6 times leading league in GPG
6 times leading league in APG
7 times leading league in PPG
3 times leading league in assists
3 times leading league in goals

915-690-1033-1723

Orr
2 Art Rosses
3 Hart Trophies
2 Conn Smythes
6 times leading league in APG
5 times leading league in assists
8 Norris trophies

657-270-645-915



I take Orr ten times out of ten. I have yet to hear a convincing argument for Lemieux over Orr. Orr not only was the best defenseman ever (8 Norris in 7 full season; yes his first Norris was in a half season), but he also put up some mighty fine points.

The thing that seals the deal is two Art Rosses. Orr could best a prime Esposito, Lafleur, Dionne, Clarke and Mikita in points. I just have never been able to wrap my head around someone being that good.

shazariahl 01-24-2013 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Phil (Post 58169491)
If the question is Howe vs. Orr then I take Howe because I think if you look objectively it is impossible to say Orr had a better career when Mr. Hockey played 26 years and most of them as the best or among the top 2-3 in the game. Not to mention Howe at his peak was fantastic as well and maybe Orr was better but it isn't a deal breaker.

Enter Lemieux. He would have had Howe's career had he stayed healthy. But since he didn't I think he becomes a better comparison for Orr. Lemieux didn't even reach 1,000 games played. He retired and missed 3 and a half years of NHL where he is still probably the best player in the game or co-best with Jagr.

That being said Mario still comes very close to Orr's career. I just think at each player's best that Orr comes out on top and it isn't as if Mario has a ton of other elite seasons on top of Orr to make up for it. Throw in Orr's better all around game and I'll give it to him. Not by a heck of a lot, but enough for me to put Orr as the #3 player of all time.

You know, I've always taken Orr above Howe, but you do make some interesting points. Not necessarily enough to cause me to change my stance, but at least enough to take a second look.

Dangler99* 01-24-2013 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jigglysquishy (Post 58212159)
Lemieux
6 Art Rosses
3 Hart Trophies
2 Conn Smythes
6 times leading league in GPG
6 times leading league in APG
7 times leading league in PPG
3 times leading league in assists
3 times leading league in goals

915-690-1033-1723

Orr
2 Art Rosses
3 Hart Trophies
2 Conn Smythes
6 times leading league in APG
5 times leading league in assists
8 Norris trophies

657-270-645-915



I take Orr ten times out of ten. I have yet to hear a convincing argument for Lemieux over Orr. Orr not only was the best defenseman ever (8 Norris in 7 full season; yes his first Norris was in a half season), but he also put up some mighty fine points.

The thing that seals the deal is two Art Rosses. Orr could best a prime Esposito, Lafleur, Dionne, Clarke and Mikita in points. I just have never been able to wrap my head around someone being that good.


199 points.

Killion 01-24-2013 01:16 AM

Orr. Beyond dominating, playing in a league of his own. Lemieux was fabulous from Centre to the Red Line, no question about it, but he did not control the game to anywhere near the extent that Orr did and often on only one leg.

TAnnala 01-24-2013 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goalsfordinner (Post 58213203)
199 points.

I would say that winning the following:

Art Ross
Hart
Norris
Conn Smythe

all in one season is a good competition for being the better season than 199.

Cyborg LeClair 01-24-2013 01:52 AM

I have to choose Orr, to dominate the league while playing the best Defense? Incredible

Darth Yoda 01-24-2013 07:00 AM

I voted Lemieux becouse i'm biased but in any serious ranking of all-time players i would pick Orr. However, i do think that WHEN Lemieux actually stepped out on the ice healthy for a change, he WAS the best ever.

Rhiessan71 01-24-2013 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Yoda (Post 58217409)
I voted Lemieux becouse i'm biased but in any serious ranking of all-time players i would pick Orr. However, i do think that WHEN Lemieux actually stepped out on the ice healthy for a change, he WAS the best ever.

Because you believe Orr was 100% healthy when he played?
We're talking about a guy that would walk into the dressing room on crutches and then go out and be the best player on the ice.
'76 Canada Cup ring a bell?

Darth Yoda 01-24-2013 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 (Post 58218707)
Because you believe Orr was 100% healthy when he played?
We're talking about a guy that would walk into the dressing room on crutches and then go out and be the best player on the ice.
'76 Canada Cup ring a bell?

First i should say that perhaps you are right, it's hard to compare forwards and defenders. As i said right now i would vote Orr over all three in a best ever scenery. But we're talking about the undisputed top four here for christs sake, it's close in terms of peaks. Lemieux finishes at number four career wise but i feel he would have done REAL well in the 1991 Canada Cup and 1996 World Cup if he was healthy, i base this on his actual performance during the 1991 and 1992 playoffs and seasons where he was somewhat healthy during those years. I mean, Lemieux was a total beast when somewhat healthy but unfortunately that often did not happen. I will however keep Orr in mind in the future too, that i can promise you.

tony d 01-24-2013 09:46 AM

Bobby Orr.

ncrunnerrrr 01-24-2013 10:47 AM

Bobby Orr. Totally dominating player.

Dangler99* 01-24-2013 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TAnnala (Post 58214297)
I would say that winning the following:

Art Ross
Hart
Norris
Conn Smythe

all in one season is a good competition for being the better season than 199.

Not really.

jigglysquishy 01-24-2013 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goalsfordinner (Post 58230047)
Not really.

Let's take a closer look.

In 1970 Orr had

33-87-120 in 76 games

That turns into

33-91-124 adjusted points

In 1990 Lemieux had

85-114-199 in 76 games

That turns into

71-94-165 adjusted points


A 41 point difference isn't that big considering the difference in positions. Couple that with Orr's HUGE jump in defensive play and I think it's fair to say that Orr had the higher peak.


Lemieux had Gretzky to compete with (out of the ten best adjusted seasons Gretzky had seven including the top two and four of the top five. Jagr had ten so Lemieux only had two of the ten) and it makes Lemieux look worse in comparison.

Orr had no one in his league. The only other person who touched him offensively (Coffey) was far weaker defensively.


In terms of peak I still take Orr, even if you ignore Gretzky. But having Gretzky there makes it harder for Lemieux to stand above Orr.

TAnnala 01-24-2013 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goalsfordinner (Post 58230047)
Not really.

Using the proper context, yes really.

Edit. Seems that jiggly already made the point.

I am not saying it is not debatable, but there definitely is a case for Orr in higher peak conversation.

Winning EVERY single major award possible is something that has never been done before and frankly i won't be surprised if we never see it again.

Fred Taylor 01-24-2013 12:45 PM

Mario Lemieux, but it's close.

Darth Yoda 01-24-2013 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jigglysquishy (Post 58231057)
Let's take a closer look.

In 1970 Orr had

33-87-120 in 76 games

That turns into

33-91-124 adjusted points

In 1990 Lemieux had

85-114-199 in 76 games

That turns into

71-94-165 adjusted points


A 41 point difference isn't that big considering the difference in positions. Couple that with Orr's HUGE jump in defensive play and I think it's fair to say that Orr had the higher peak.

Of course he was good there but he also had stretches during the 1995-96 season and in the 1992 playoffs that was his bests, amongst others. 71 adjusted goals is a pretty competitive number since as you said Orr had 31 and 41 less points.

Quote:

Lemieux had Gretzky to compete with (out of the ten best adjusted seasons Gretzky had seven including the top two and four of the top five. Jagr had ten so Lemieux only had two of the ten) and it makes Lemieux look worse in comparison.
You hav'nt adjusted for games played in the seasons have you? The thing with Lemieux is we for various reasons only saw his best during more or less short stretches. I wont claim that Lemieux ever was a better passer than Gretzky, but i do hold his goalscoring in very high regard in an era where Gretzkys goal scoring mysteriously plummeted although it was still well before he turned 30.

Quote:

Orr had no one in his league. The only other person who touched him offensively (Coffey) was far weaker defensively.
Coffey DID NOT touch Orr offensively considering the era and quality of teammates. No-one on D is even close.

Quote:

In terms of peak I still take Orr, even if you ignore Gretzky. But having Gretzky there makes it harder for Lemieux to stand above Orr.
He's not necessarily before Orr, but at his very best he was highly competitive.

Dangler99* 01-24-2013 02:05 PM

Lets not act like Orr was a typical defensemen. He was basically a forward as well.

TAnnala 01-24-2013 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goalsfordinner (Post 58236879)
Lets not act like Orr was a typical defensemen. He was basically a forward as well.

As well like Mario? Cause that kind of comparison would be borderline criminal.

Orr was a D-man. First and foremost. He just was kind of D-man that never had been and has since.

Dangler99* 01-24-2013 03:00 PM

Mario had 76 points in 43 games in 2002. Now does anyone think Orr could do what he in this era?

Reds4Life 01-24-2013 03:05 PM

For me, Mario is the better player by a small, but clear margin.

ushvinder 01-24-2013 03:30 PM

I doubt lemieux would have adjusted to 165 points if he played in the 1970 season. Espositio was second in scoring at 99 points, mikita was 3rd at 86 points, rest of the league finished below 80 points. Mario probably scores 140-155 points at most if he played in that season. Orr peaked higher.


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