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-   -   Who benefitted most from his line mates? (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1331073)

Connecticut 01-23-2013 03:29 PM

Who benefitted most from his line mates?
 
What player in NHL history would you nominate as having benefited the most from his line mates? In particular, whose plus-minus ended up way above where it would have been if they weren't skating with line mate(s) way above their level? In other words, Selanne benefited from Kariya, or Hull benefited from Oates, but those were good players in their own right -- I'm thinking of players that were greatly elevated by the guys they got to skate with.

Thanks!

(Side question: what years did Dave Semenko play on a line with Gretzky?)

Moridin 01-23-2013 03:33 PM

Recently..

Cheechoo and Hejduk.. Good players elevated to top of the league from playing with great playmakers.

TheDevilMadeMe 01-23-2013 03:33 PM

If you're talking offense, probably one of Mario Lemieux's linemates like Rob Brown or Warren Young.

If you're talking plus/minus, definitely some of the Bobby-Orr era Bruins like Ken Hodge.

Psycho Papa Joe 01-23-2013 03:48 PM

Al Secord with Denis Savard.

begbeee 01-23-2013 03:53 PM

Is there a player who made it to the HOF mostly because of his teammates? Or who especially successfully player in terms of stats, who got them because of his teammates?

Esposito? Kurri? Recchi?

I like Cheechoo and Hejduk examples a lot!

TheDevilMadeMe 01-23-2013 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by begbeee (Post 58171843)
Is there a player who made it to the HOF mostly because of his teammates? Or who especially successfully player in terms of stats, who got them because of his teammates?

Esposito? Kurri? Recchi?

I like Cheechoo and Hejduk examples a lot!

Esposito and Kurri were Top 100 players on their own, and I think Recchi was too much of a journeyman to really have relied off one teammate.

But I think there are players who made it to the HHOF because of teammates. Dick Duff and Clarke Gillies definitely. Woody Dumart and Bobby Bauer probably don't make the Hall without Milt Schmidt. I doubt Steve Shutt makes it without Guy Lafleur.

LeBlondeDemon10 01-23-2013 04:06 PM

I think there are lots of examples. Does Kurri score 52, 71, 68 and 54 goals without Gretzky? Unlikely. He may have topped out at 50 w/o Gretzky. Does Brett Hull score 72, 86, 70 without Oates' sweet passes? Never. He may have topped out at 60 (he scored 57 with Janney in 93-94). Does Mike Bossy score 60+ goals for 5 years without Trottier? I think he scores between 50 and 60 regularly. This is the benefit of having two elite players on one line. Of course it works the other way too. Do Oates or Trottier pile up the assists without their prime wingmen?

There are a couple of exceptions to this bi-law. Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr and Howe were consistently elite no matter who they played with and they made a ton of players look awfully good. Bernie Nichols and Kevin Stevens come to mind.

vadim sharifijanov 01-23-2013 04:07 PM

not to say cheechoo sniffs 50 goals or a rocket trophy without thornton, but let us not forget that better goal scorers than cheechoo (heatley, marleau) never hit 50 with thornton, nor did they seriously threaten to leading the league ever (heatley did elsewhere, obviously). hard to say what cheechoo would have looked like if not for injuries, but my guess is something like prime scott mellanby on the low end, and prime pat verbeek on the high end.

unorthodox answer to the thread's question though: both sedins. separately, they peak as PPG players. together, they peak as art ross winners.

thom 01-23-2013 04:10 PM

The gentleman who said Steve Shutt is correct.Shutt was a hall of famer because of Guy Lafleur.Even Lemaire who became a good 2 way centerman later in his career is a borderline hall of famer.Both were very good nhl'ers but neither were great.

Harry Waters 01-23-2013 04:18 PM

I'm not sure, but how about Mikael Renberg? Just the first name I thought of - I didn't follow the league closely at the time during his flyer days, but from what I know he wasn't that good after 1997. Thoughts?

ushvinder 01-23-2013 04:20 PM

Trottier- a hall of famer on his own, but bossy and potvin boosted his totals. This will come off as an unpopular opinion because trottier is a god on this board, but its true.

Kurri- gretzky boosted his totals by 10-15 points IMO

Esposito- orr's transition game in boston had alot to do with thier offense.

pdd 01-23-2013 04:28 PM

Ray Sheppard when he played with Steve Yzerman.

Sheppard on Yzerman's RW (from 1993-94 through 1995-96):

130GP, 84-53-137 (53-33-86 per-82)

The rest of his career:

687GP, 273-247-520 (33-29-62 per-82)

vadim sharifijanov 01-23-2013 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eva unit zero (Post 58173419)
Ray Sheppard when he played with Steve Yzerman.

Sheppard on Yzerman's RW (from 1993-94 through 1995-96):

130GP, 84-53-137 (53-33-86 per-82)

The rest of his career:

687GP, 273-247-520 (33-29-62 per-82)

i always thought it was sheppard with fedorov, and dino with yzerman.

Big Phil 01-23-2013 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by begbeee (Post 58171843)
Is there a player who made it to the HOF mostly because of his teammates? Or who especially successfully player in terms of stats, who got them because of his teammates?

Esposito? Kurri? Recchi?

I like Cheechoo and Hejduk examples a lot!

Not exactly Rob Brown, Kenny Wharram and Paul MacLean is it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ushvinder (Post 58173087)
Trottier- a hall of famer on his own, but bossy and potvin boosted his totals. This will come off as an unpopular opinion because trottier is a god on this board, but its true.

Kurri- gretzky boosted his totals by 10-15 points IMO

Esposito- orr's transition game in boston had alot to do with thier offense.

I don't disagree with your Kurri assesment. I still think Kurri is a HHOFer without Gretzky though. He is a guy who flirts with 50 goals and is a strong defensive prescence. Maybe he never reaches 135 points, but 100 point seasons wouldn't be unusual with him.

Trottier had 95 points as a rookie before Bossy was even drafted. Yes, Potvin was there but I don't think you can lead the league in points (1979) and finish 2nd (1978) and be classified as someone worth mentioning on this thread. Bossy was a rookie in 1978 so I don't know how much credit you want to give him. I will say Potvin was the straw that stirred the drink on that team but we are talking about Trottier, Bossy and Potvin here. All three players are HHOFers if they are Hartford Whalers.

Esposito is far too talented and too high on the all-time list to be mentioned here. We went over a lot of things on a fun Esposito thread a while back ;) and I believe Dark Shadows was a poster who constantly eluded to Hodge and Cashman being more of the perfect complementary pieces than Orr. Esposito hit 50 even strength goals twice, so it is obvious this wasn't all Orr.


For me you have to look at a player who isn't a HHOFer without his linemates or a guy who was elevated and just flat out looked out of place. Esposito was by far the best of his linemates. Trottier was as good as Bossy. Kurri...........well, it's Wayne Gretzky for crying out loud!

So for me I'll mention Steve Shutt. It isn't as if he wasn't a fine player in his own right, just can't see him ever making the HHOF if he is a Toronto Maple Leaf.

Frank the Tank 01-23-2013 05:10 PM

Blair MacDonald - 46 goals playing with Gretzky in the Oilers first NHL season. He never cracked 20 goals again in the NHL. Glen Sather was quoted saying after trading him to Vancouver, "Even a fire hydrant could score playing with Gretzky."

A news article from 1987 that lists numerous players that benefited playing with Gretzky.

overpass 01-23-2013 05:33 PM

Sedin and Sedin
Lindros and Leclair
Gretzky and Kurri
Trottier and Bossy
Savard and Larmer
Dionne and Taylor

All very good to great players, but you have to be to stick on a line with a great player for any length of time.

habsfanatics 01-23-2013 06:32 PM

Craig Simpson with Gretzky/Lemieux
Kurri with Gretzky
Brett Hull with Adam Oates


I took good players who were made better. IMO.

thom 01-23-2013 06:40 PM

Here's a tricky one 1950's Dickie Moore won 2 scoring titles so did Geoffrion but Maurice Richard never had one?Now don't get me wrong Richard might have been the best but just saying

TheDevilMadeMe 01-23-2013 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thom (Post 58180467)
Here's a tricky one 1950's Dickie Moore won 2 scoring titles so did Geoffrion but Maurice Richard never had one?Now don't get me wrong Richard might have been the best but just saying

Not sure what this has to do with the topic, but Richard finished 2nd in scoring 5 times and would have won the 1955 Art Ross if he wasn't suspended (his teammate Geoffrion passed him, I think on the last day of the season, to boos from the home crowd).

Dickie Moore is an interesting one because he barely got Hart votes when he won his 2 scoring titles.

Disengage 01-23-2013 07:07 PM

How about Bob Probert playing with Steve Yzerman in 87-88? 74 games, 29 goals, 33 assists, and 398 PIM. All career highs and never came close to matching any of the marks.

kmad 01-23-2013 07:45 PM

Clark Gillies

RECsGuy* 01-23-2013 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jagorim Jarg (Post 58188277)
Clark Gillies

Winner...by a mile.

tombombadil 01-23-2013 08:17 PM

side question - does Kurri win a Selke if he is no longer known as the greatest benefactor of playmaking in the league? If he plays with Messier, tops out at 50 goals, 115 points, and maybe averages 40 + 100, does the media focus onto his great defensive game?

Senor Catface 01-23-2013 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ushvinder (Post 58173087)
Trottier- a hall of famer on his own, but bossy and potvin boosted his totals. This will come off as an unpopular opinion because trottier is a god on this board, but its true.

Kurri- gretzky boosted his totals by 10-15 points IMO

Esposito- orr's transition game in boston had alot to do with thier offense.

I think there's a little more to it.

Kurri

With Gretzky
86-87 108 points
87-88 93 points

Without Gretzky
88-89 102 points
89-90 93 points

I pulled out these numbers because firstly, the proximity of the years. There was only 2 years Kurri played without Gretzky in Edmonton, and he was already 29. So pulling up the 135 season isn't a good way to compare the stages of Kurri. As has been shown, snipers peak very very early in their career. So comparing a 24 year old Kurri in his prime to a 29 year old without Gretzky doesn't work well.

You need to compare a Kurri playing at the same level to know much his offense would drop.So really, this stage of Kurri's career started at around 86-87 when he stopped scoring at such a silly rate. That offensive Kurri, from 86-90 in Edmonton, didn't really lose points once Gretzky left. It remained stable.

Unfortunately it's pretty impossible to guess how much of his peak would have dropped, but post-peak Kurri maintained his point levels after Gretzky left town.

ushvinder 01-23-2013 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by President Van Buren (Post 58192147)
I think there's a little more to it.

Kurri

With Gretzky
86-87 108 points
87-88 93 points

Without Gretzky
88-89 102 points
89-90 93 points

I pulled out these numbers because firstly, the proximity of the years. There was only 2 years Kurri played without Gretzky in Edmonton, and he was already 29. So pulling up the 135 season isn't a good way to compare the stages of Kurri. As has been shown, snipers peak very very early in their career. So comparing a 24 year old Kurri in his prime to a 29 year old without Gretzky doesn't work well.

You need to compare a Kurri playing at the same level to know much his offense would drop.So really, this stage of Kurri's career started at around 86-87 when he stopped scoring at such a silly rate. That offensive Kurri, from 86-90 in Edmonton, didn't really lose points once Gretzky left. It remained stable.

Unfortunately it's pretty impossible to guess how much of his peak would have dropped, but post-peak Kurri maintained his point levels after Gretzky left town.

Except the difference is kurri was 2nd in scoring in 1987, in 1990 he was like 18th in scoring.

To be honest though, I think Kurri gets underrated though, especially if you compare him to someone like bryan trottier. If Trottier played with gretzky instead of jari, would he provide an upgrade in offense and defensive abilities, probably not. Trottier should rank higher becuase of his hart trophy, but im not sure he should be 40 spots higher on an all time list, thats a big gap.


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