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-   -   Time to start Ellis (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1333013)

OntarioFisherman* 01-25-2013 09:38 PM

Time to start Ellis
 
Ward would have let through so many goals this game. Ellis was incredible and half the game Faulk wasn't even in. Obviously we haven't see much of Ellis but what we have seen is good and Ward has been subpar and over-hyped for years. Ellis has earned his right to start.

Discuss~

Lazyking 01-25-2013 09:43 PM

No...............

Fin9* 01-25-2013 09:43 PM

yes...

normalpsychology 01-25-2013 09:43 PM

I agree. Ward has started at home, and when the team is fresh, and he's still doing worse than Ellis. Ellis had to come in cold on the first game when the defense was sucking, and he outperformed Ward then. Today it was the second day of a back to back, the team was tired, and they were in enemy territory, and once again he outperforms Ward.

The team is more confident and comfortable with him in the net. They don't trust Ward to make the stops that you expect a goalie to stop.

impeach estaalo 01-25-2013 09:47 PM

A serious question for the Ward defenders: how many goals would he have let in tonight? I mean, there were a lot of scoring chances against, and every excuse for the goals Ward lets in boils down to "it was a scoring chance, Cam Ward can't stop scoring chances." My guess is 6-7 goals at least. Maybe 4 if Muller came to his senses and yanked him.

Lazyking 01-25-2013 09:50 PM

If any of you were really serious, I'd go back and watch the last 3 games and compare it to this one. The defense actually did their job by clearing the puck instead of just standing around.

Zombie Mike Murphy 01-25-2013 09:53 PM

I think with his play Ellis has earned at least spot starts - and if he STAYS hot he should get more of them. Make Cam earn his starts. Responsibility, right?

Sure the defense sucked the first two games, but not all 10 of those goals were the D's fault.

normalpsychology 01-25-2013 09:53 PM

the stats say it all...

http://i.imgur.com/oofAoZJ.png

Ward has faced 71 shots and let in 11. Ellis has only faced 17 less and let in 2 goals.

Ellis faced 41 shots tonight. Ward would have most likely let in 5 or 6, you are correct in that. Muller would have probably pulled him after 4 though

normalpsychology 01-25-2013 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazyking (Post 58353239)
If any of you were really serious, I'd go back and watch the last 3 games and compare it to this one. The defense actually did their job by clearing the puck instead of just standing around.

I'd suggest you take off your '06 rose colored glasses and do the same.

impeach estaalo 01-25-2013 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lennay Kekua (Post 58353537)
the stats say it all...

http://i.imgur.com/oofAoZJ.png

Ward has faced 71 shots and let in 11. Ellis has only faced 17 less and let in 2 goals.

Ellis faced 41 shots tonight. Ward would have most likely let in 5 or 6, you are correct in that. Muller would have probably pulled him after 4 though

Agreed and I personally feel that less than two full games is a big enough sample size to declare Dan Ellis the starter. Add in the fact that Ellis has been playing in the AHL while Ward has been dealing the birth of what has to be at least his 15th child by now and I think Ellis should at least get the benefit of the doubt.

OntarioFisherman* 01-25-2013 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazyking (Post 58353239)
If any of you were really serious, I'd go back and watch the last 3 games and compare it to this one. The defense actually did their job by clearing the puck instead of just standing around.

You can't blame the last few years on the defense, lol. Yeah defense is bad but ward should still block some, not let in 4-5 goals everynight. Ellis is behind the same defense and both times has done better. I honestly can't figure out how people defend Ward when he has been subpar for years.

Muller, you want accountability, now is your chance :handclap::handclap: One has proven themselves one hasn't. If ward is in next game look for 3+ goals from the other team and people blaming it on defense again

Identity404 01-25-2013 09:58 PM

I wouldn't mind Ellis starting the next game. Ride the hot hand, if you will. #NotATrollAccount

totaltank 01-25-2013 10:12 PM

What's the goal here, to win Monday's game or to make the playoffs and maybe win a round or four? The bottom line is that we're not making the playoffs with Dan Ellis as our No. 1 goalie. He's hot now, and that's great. We got two points tonight that we probably didn't deserve, but that's a backup goalie's job. We're just not used to seeing it.

If we're going to do any real damage this season, we need Cam Ward to be a top-10 goalie. Cam Ward won't be a top-10 goalie sitting on the bench.

It's a "long view" vs. "short view" thing. Plus, Cam was 4-0 against Boston last year and stopped 139 of 144 shots. So I think Cam starts Monday. If he continues to fight the puck, then we have this conversation about Friday against Ottawa.

normalpsychology 01-25-2013 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Summer Ruutu (Post 58353749)
Agreed and I personally feel that less than two full games is a big enough sample size to declare Dan Ellis the starter. Add in the fact that Ellis has been playing in the AHL while Ward has been dealing the birth of what has to be at least his 15th child by now and I think Ellis should at least get the benefit of the doubt.

Let's bring lifetime NHL stats into the mix:

Ellis:
SA: 4,343 GA: 395 S%: .909

Ward:
SA: 12,167 GA: 1,094 S%: .910

So historically they have been pretty just about equal. Cam Ward has often had to play in front of bad defense, but Ellis has also historically been a back up, meaning many of his games are going to be in situations where the team is tired and/or the regular goalie has been pulled because the team is doing bad.

SO historically their stats are about the same. Up until this year...

And Ellis is blowing Ward out of the water. .963 to .845

WWAD 01-25-2013 10:13 PM

All you Ward naysayers need to take off your bright shiny new thing glasses and put back on your 2006 Ward Stanley Cup glasses. It's for the best.

Identity404 01-25-2013 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by totalkev (Post 58355263)
What's the goal here, to win Monday's game or to make the playoffs and maybe win a round or four? The bottom line is that we're not making the playoffs with Dan Ellis as our No. 1 goalie. He's hot now, and that's great. We got two points tonight that we probably didn't deserve, but that's a backup goalie's job. We're just not used to seeing it.

If we're going to do any real damage this season, we need Cam Ward to be a top-10 goalie. Cam Ward won't be a top-10 goalie sitting on the bench.

It's a "long view" vs. "short view" thing. Plus, Cam was 4-0 against Boston last year and stopped 139 of 144 shots. So I think Cam starts Monday. If he continues to fight the puck, then we have this conversation about Friday against Ottawa.

This is too rational and does not belong in this thread.

Clark Gillies 01-25-2013 10:28 PM

I was the one who started the thread to have Ellis start the home opener and got ridiculed by many. (and I wasn't even calling for him to become the "#1")

While I feel Ellis needs to get more starts than any backup for us since Ward became the starter - I think you have to give Ward the opportunity on Monday. However, the leash should be very short and if he struggles at all give Ellis the start on Friday.

Blueline Bomber 01-25-2013 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OntarioFisherman (Post 58353887)
You can't blame the last few years on the defense, lol. Yeah defense is bad but ward should still block some, not let in 4-5 goals everynight. Ellis is behind the same defense and both times has done better. I honestly can't figure out how people defend Ward when he has been subpar for years.

Muller, you want accountability, now is your chance :handclap::handclap: One has proven themselves one hasn't. If ward is in next game look for 3+ goals from the other team and people blaming it on defense again

The fact that you believe Ward has been subpar for years speaks volumes about your opinion and the research you've done to form said opinion.

Didn't we go through this whole goaltender "debate" a couple years ago, when "Leighton deserves to start!" turned into what anyone with half a brain knew it would?

normalpsychology 01-25-2013 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber (Post 58357707)
The fact that you believe Ward has been subpar for years speaks volumes about your opinion and the research you've done to form said opinion.

Didn't we go through this whole goaltender "debate" a couple years ago, when "Leighton deserves to start!" turned into what anyone with half a brain knew it would?

I could only laugh at anyone who considers these two situations to be analogous. :laugh::handclap::laugh::laugh::laugh:


Quote:

I was the one who started the thread to have Ellis start the home opener and got ridiculed by many. (and I wasn't even calling for him to become the "#1")

While I feel Ellis needs to get more starts than any backup for us since Ward became the starter - I think you have to give Ward the opportunity on Monday. However, the leash should be very short and if he struggles at all give Ellis the start on Friday.
that seems reasonable as Ward does tend to play well against Bruins

Blueline Bomber 01-25-2013 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lennay Kekua (Post 58358421)
I could only laugh at anyone who considers these two situations to be analogous. :laugh::handclap::

Exact same, in fact. Backup gets hot at the same time Ward struggles. Suddenly, some fans believe the backup should be the starter, when the entire history of said backup has shown he's not an NHL starter.

Ward is our starter and will be for the considerable future, especially consider out goaltending prospects keep leaving. 2 games doesn't change that.

Lazyking 01-25-2013 11:19 PM

No one mentions this, but Ward was sharp yesterday. if you think in the exact same situation that Ellis would have stopped the three goals you're fooling yourselves.

So, two rusty games from a guy who didn't play for 8 months is all that is being based on who should start.

Zombie Mike Murphy 01-25-2013 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blueline Bomber (Post 58359113)
Exact same, in fact. Backup gets hot at the same time Ward struggles. Suddenly, some fans believe the backup should be the starter, when the entire history of said backup has shown he's not an NHL starter.

Ward is our starter and will be for the considerable future, especially consider out goaltending prospects keep leaving. 2 games doesn't change that.

When Leighton came to Carolina his NHL career line was 12-25-10 and 3 shutouts, and a career GAA under .900 , Ellis is 72-57-15, with 12 shutouts, and a .910, and nearly twice as many saves as Leighton had shots faced. I don't buy them as comparables.

Anton Dubinchuk 01-25-2013 11:34 PM

I'm all for having a good time and being hilarious, and these boards always bring that. But today it struck me that I haven't been in a legitimate hockey conversation on these boards in a VERY long time.

Psyduck 01-25-2013 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazyking (Post 58360579)
No one mentions this, but Ward was sharp yesterday. if you think in the exact same situation that Ellis would have stopped the three goals you're fooling yourselves.

So, two rusty games from a guy who didn't play for 8 months is all that is being based on who should start.

Exactly. No goalie would have stopped that Pominville deflection. Name one that would have! I'm talking to you troll trio!

The behind the back Vanek pass to Pominville was just a sick play with a perfect shot. I can't think of a single goalie who could have stopped that either.

The other goal was blocked out front and popped out for an easy goal. You can't blame the goalie for playing the shot on that.

As good as Ellis was tonight, Ward was also great last night he just had three unlucky goals scored on him. I wouldn't say that about the first two games in which many of the goals were his fault. But, at least last game, Ward did his job.

Blueline Bomber 01-25-2013 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troll Ward (Post 58360849)
When Leighton came to Carolina his NHL career line was 12-25-10 and 3 shutouts, and a career GAA under .900 , Ellis is 72-57-15, with 12 shutouts, and a .910, and nearly twice as many saves as Leighton had shots faced. I don't buy them as comparables.

Didn't say the players were comparable, just the situation. Seems like everytime we have a backup hit a hot streak (usually after a good performance in the AHL), there's calls for that backup to replace Ward. When I have more time, I'd be happy to go back to those topics re: Leighton and we'll compare

Foolish on its head.


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