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-   -   Bylsma/coaching discussion thread (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1333157)

KIRK 01-26-2013 12:05 AM

Bylsma/coaching discussion thread
 
Give reasons why he's the right coach for the Pens, or why/when he should go.

MrBurgundy 01-26-2013 12:06 AM

And so it begins.

aSockalypse 01-26-2013 12:06 AM

Really?

KIRK 01-26-2013 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBurgundy (Post 58363419)
And so it begins.

It was either you or me skippy. Better in one thread than a half dozen.

EDIT: If this thread is so offensive, then I've got no issue with a moderator locking it. But, it's not as if there's only one or two of us suddenly saying fire Bylsma now. It's a lot of us voicing the same concerns that we've in increasing numbers been voicing over the last twelve or more months.

Flat Stanley 01-26-2013 12:10 AM

Listen, I have been a big supporter of Bylsma, I still think he's a good coach, but I agree with KIRK, he's not saying he should go, he wants opinions on what we think and at this point, his coaching decisions and adjustment making abilities should be questioned.

mpp9 01-26-2013 12:10 AM

I'll start. I'm done with him. The energy and positive atmosphere has worn off. We need someone who can get the most out of our star players and get our team back playing a structured, disciplined game.

vodeni 01-26-2013 12:13 AM

I loved Bylsma in the cup year, agressive forechecking, offensive possesion, push push push, as if completely scratched everything and and said let's start it over,

My biggest concern now with his coaching is what it seems to me if we are winning it's all good, but if we are loosing we keep making same mistakes, nothing changes, going back to that Islanders series last year, you just seat here watch and cannot believe we are so impotent, no sparks just drag....

Saving Greiss 01-26-2013 12:13 AM

His baffling line combinations. i.e. Glass/Malkin/Adams. Really?
His love affair with vets/poor handling of younger players.
Refusal to make in-game adjustments.
His system, if you want to call it that at this point.

KIRK 01-26-2013 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik (Post 58363643)
Listen, I have been a big supporter of Bylsma, I still think he's a good coach, but I agree with KIRK, he's not saying he should go, he wants opinions on what we think and at this point, his coaching decisions and adjustment making abilities should be questioned.

I just thought it would be better to do it in one thread, without saying what to do.

My own opinion is with mpp9. Sometimes, leopards don't change their spots. Sometimes, young coaches regress as much as they learn. And, at some point, you have to say that putting Sid and Geno in the best position possible to win the cup every year is more important than whether you like a coach or whether he 'won' a cup four years ago or even whether he's learning.

KIRK 01-26-2013 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aSockalypse (Post 58363425)
Really?

O'k, why is he the right coach for the Pens?

gordie 01-26-2013 12:16 AM

For no other reason then hiring a friend in Tony Granato who I don't believe adds anything like he did when was head coach in Colorado.

Crafton 01-26-2013 12:16 AM

at the minimum can Granato and Reirden and surround this "player's coach" with some tacticians. then again i could see Bylsma mucking things up even if he was flanked by Clausewitz and Metternich.

Flat Stanley 01-26-2013 12:18 AM

I like the energy and positive attitude he brings, it's essential to a young team, but he has been schooled by other coaches in the regular season and playoffs. Players have publicly noted that they know how to Play the Penguins down to a T yet Bylsma refuses to change anything.

Like I said, I've been a Bylsma supporter, but I don't think he's the right coach for this team anymore, he doesn't hold players accountable, he makes poor lineup choices and he sounds like a broken record when we lose, "we didn't get to our game".

We won the Cup in 2009, he was an important part of that, but the Pens played a different style and we had a lineup that was deeper and younger, yes we have some of the same guys, but 4 years later, they're not the same player.

He changed the entire style of our team and ever since he did, we have failed.

Ray Shero is also at fault, he did the exact opposite of improving the team in the offseason and the on ice product is proving that.

EDIT: Oh and like Superunknown94 mentioned, he doesn't hold veterans accountable or bench them, but he'll demote and scratch younger players, at least they have an excuse, they're learning the pro game and have to learn from their mistakes, you just zap their confidence when you scratch them. Simon Despres hasn't been bad on the Penguins D this season, but Bylsma "doesn't like his demeanor" so he decides to go with Ben Lovejoy, who shouldn't even be in the NHL and wouldn't be if Bylsma wasn't the coach. Chris Kunitz has sucked so far this season, I think he should be benched as a wake up call to say "hey, you're not going to have a spot in the lineup if you continue to play mediocre hockey" that's a message that can be sent to the whole team, but it won't happen, instead of being a COACH (that's his job title, right?) and COACHING the younger guys and teach them not to make the mistakes, he lets them have a seat in the press box or reduced minutes on the bottom line/pair.

KIRK 01-26-2013 12:20 AM

I'd like this to stay a grown up thread. I'm serious about that. I have my own opinion. I'll stand by it and probably indulge in some hyperbole.

That said, if someone can give me a reason WHY he's the right coach for the team beyond 'he does great when players are injured' or 'he's a good guy' or 'he was behind the bench for a cup three years ago;, then I really am all ears.

I've been trying to think of the best way to verbalize where I'm at. Then, I saw this from Tender Rip in RRP's intoxication thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tender Rip (Post 58361379)
- Bylsma.
1. I think we have been among the worst passing teams in the league for a couple of seasons. Ought not be possible.
2. We have a defensive system that negates our strengths and inflates our weaknesses.
3. When things go south, we are incapable of adjustments and seemingly never get a hand from the bench.
4. I am completely baffled why Despres got scratched. The third pairing had largely been effective, and I thought Despres played a very decent game against Toronto. Suppose someone had to get punished and sure enough it will be the youngest player on the team. What we then got instead was the worst performance of any Pens pairing this short season so far with Lovejoy being clearly the worse of the two.

Anyway... I don't rate Bylsma and never have, so maybe I am being biased here. But I think we exhibit every indication that we are a poorly coached team.

He nailed it: We exhibit every indication that we are a poorly coached team.

KIRK 01-26-2013 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik (Post 58364149)
I like the energy and positive attitude he brings, it's essential to a young team, but he has been schooled by other coaches in the regular season and playoffs. Players have publicly noted that they know how to Play the Penguins down to a T yet Bylsma refuses to change anything.

Like I said, I've been a Bylsma supporter, but I don't think he's the right coach for this team anymore, he doesn't hold players accountable, he makes poor lineup choices and he sounds like a broken record when we lose, "we didn't get to our game".

We won the Cup in 2009, he was an important part of that, but the Pens played a different style and we had a lineup that was deeper and younger, yes we have some of the same guys, but 4 years later, they're not the same player.

He changed the entire style of our team and ever since he did, we have failed.

Ray Shero is also at fault, he did the exact opposite of improving the team in the offseason and the on ice product is proving that.

That definitely is worth mentioning.

cheesedanish87 01-26-2013 12:22 AM

Hes had the best talent in NHL last 3 seasons hes managed to get 1 playoff series win out of those 3 years. I would love to see dale hunter here he turned the caps from a terrible def team to a pretty good def team by the playoffs.

aSockalypse 01-26-2013 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KIRK (Post 58363967)
O'k, why is he the right coach for the Pens?

I'll be the first to say I don't know the most about schemes and such, I do think he is quirky with lines and how he jumbles them desperately searching game to game, but I still think he does an alright job. He doesn't really let lines set and chemistry build because of this, it just seems like a neverending search. Some of that is on Shero though for not having a competent top 6. 1 or 2/6 does not belong from game to game, and ultimately makes lines ineffective at times. I just don't think we should be calling for a coaching change 4 games into the season especially after we handled Philly and NYR. YES, we have had early playoff exits the past few years, but let's just wait a little while before we call for something of this magnitude. EDIT: I agree with the post below, just don't want to clutter. He doesn't seem to fix problems very well. I think defensive performance is better than it was last half of last season, but layout wise it isn't any better.

And yes I know I was quick on the trigger if any of you remember about moving Tangradi down after the first game, but that's an uneffective player, not the head coach who has a cup and has been to the playoffs every year of his tenure here.

I know it's easy to win with the players we have, and I'm not going to be able to point out what exactly is a coaching mishap and what is "our players are playing like ****", but I just don't think we need to call for change so early into a season with a week long training camp and a bunch of rusty players.

Jaded-Fan 01-26-2013 12:25 AM

My beef is simple.

It does not look like Bylsma adjusts or learns from past issues.

Both in game.

And worse, from season to season.

The Pens lost tonight for basically a lot of the same reasons that they lost in Philly last year in the playoffs. The same issues that have been a problem for more than one season now. And yet he does not seem to adjust the system at all. That is inexcusable.

TheSniper26 01-26-2013 12:29 AM

I have to say, this thread does seem a bit redundant. All of the things said here will likely be brought up in every other thread on here anyway.

Typically, I detest the mentality that dumping the coach is the first solution to everything. But it's getting harder and harder to see Bylsma's value to this roster. As someone else said, the bottom line is that he's had the best talent in the league to work with and he's not getting results. The clock is ticking.

Jaded-Fan 01-26-2013 12:32 AM

It just seems to fit.


MtlPenFan 01-26-2013 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSniper26 (Post 58364747)
I have to say, this thread does seem a bit redundant. All of the things said here will likely be brought up in every other thread on here anyway.

Typically, I detest the mentality that dumping the coach is the first solution to everything. But it's getting harder and harder to see Bylsma's value to this roster. As someone else said, the bottom line is that he's had the best talent in the league to work with and he's not getting results. The clock is ticking.

I've asked this before, but for the fun of it I'll ask again?

What talent are we talking about again? I mean besides the obvious two.

Omnomnomnom 01-26-2013 12:35 AM

I wonder whether his act has just worn off on the players. Like, there is always this idea that disciplinarian coaches will eventually wear out their welcome. Maybe it's the same with Byslma? There's only so many times you can preach the same concepts over and over again before the players start tuning you out. Maybe Byslma has been too nice to the boys?

Crozbar 01-26-2013 12:36 AM

This is repeating what has been said but ... I know a coach alone cannot be expected to magically turn things around. Sometimes the players just don't execute. But if something's broke, and you care, try to fix it. I don't get DB's lack of apparent attempts at adjustment. This is the same stale show going on 3 years. I really like the guy and want him to succeed, but I've been more than ready to see him gone for the last two years, at least.

KIRK 01-26-2013 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSniper26 (Post 58364747)
I have to say, this thread does seem a bit redundant. All of the things said here will likely be brought up in every other thread on here anyway.

Typically, I detest the mentality that dumping the coach is the first solution to everything. But it's getting harder and harder to see Bylsma's value to this roster. As someone else said, the bottom line is that he's had the best talent in the league to work with and he's not getting results. The clock is ticking.

I started this thread because I thought it would be better to have it all in one spot, where we could have a mature conversation about it.

I'd love to hear from people like Cole and Jiggy who know a lot more about the X's and O's and other variables than a lot of us.

BUT, the point you make about results mattering is one that I share, as is Jaded's point about seeing the same mistakes again and again.

For me-- I posted it elsewhere but I'll post it again here-- the right coach is someone who uses everything at his disposal (systems, line combinations, motivation/the whip, adjustments, etc) to put players, especially his best players, into position where they're playing to their strengths and not to their weaknesses. Put another way, the right coach puts his players into the best possible position to make plays, and from there it's on the players.

When I look at this team, I see players so hopelessly out of position that I cannot help but to wonder if that's coaching or the players not trying/caring enough (and if the reason even matters because the result is the same). I cannot help but to wonder if the limited success this team has enjoyed is as much about transcendent individual efforts from guys like Sid and Geno and to a lesser extent Flower and Letang, where they're willing the team to victory in spite of, rather than because of, the coaching.

vikingGoalie 01-26-2013 12:40 AM

I think he'll get a long enough leash this season, but if we exit in the first round AGAIN I will be shocked if he's still around next season.

Too bad Therrien has a job now, it would be cosmic irony if Therrien replaced Blysma half way through this season, we figure out how to play defense and won a cup... It could be an endless cycle... :)


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