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-   -   Sabres - Blackhawks proposal (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=13340)

Ghost of Dale Hunter 09-22-2003 12:07 PM

Sabres - Blackhawks proposal
 
Sabres get Eric Daze and Jon Klemm

Hawks get Jay Mckee , Curtis Brown, Pominville

Hawks upgrade defense, Brown slides into 3 slot behind Ruutu and Zhamnov.

Buffalo gets some size on the wing and I think Klemm would fit nicely into buffalo's pairings with someone like Brian Campbell or Kalinin.

I think Buffalo gets the satan deal done, I just don't get the feeling Mckee is really wanted anymore.

Sabres potential lineup.

Kotalik - Briere-Dumont
Daze - Drury - Satan
Pyatt - Hecht -Afinogenov
Mair - Roy - Peters
Begin,Connolly

Zhitnik Kalinin
Campbell Tallinder
Delmore Klemm

Patrick, Bouchard

Biron, Noronen

I'd say regardless of what happens it comes down to Connolly or Roy for the last roster spot.

TehDoak 09-22-2003 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost of Dale Hunter
Sabres get Eric Daze and Jon Klemm

Hawks get Jay Mckee , Curtis Brown, Pominville

An interesting proposal. Buffalo adds size up front and physical play/veteran presence to the blue line. Daze would add some much needed offense to the left side. It would also help clear out the logjam at center, thoug Buffalo is adding 5.7 million in salary while only dumping 3.6 (2.0 for McKee after resigning, and 1.6 for Brown). Maybe swap Connoly for Pominiville just to even out salaries (5.7 to 4.8) and add a 3rd rounder from Chicago. However, i think your line combos are a bit off:

Daze-Drury-Satan
Hecht-Briere-Kotalik
Pyatt-Mair-S. Thomas (please oh please)
Peters-Roy-Afinogenov/Dumont

Zhitnik-Kalinin
Klemm-Tallinder
Campbell/Delmore-Patrick/Fitzpatrick.

Buffalo could package Satan and Dumont/Afinogenov and even Zhitnik too to get a #1 D-man in return.

Ghost of Dale Hunter 09-22-2003 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdoak
An interesting proposal. Buffalo adds size up front and physical play/veteran presence to the blue line. Daze would add some much needed offense to the left side. It would also help clear out the logjam at center, thoug Buffalo is adding 5.7 million in salary while only dumping 3.6 (2.0 for McKee after resigning, and 1.6 for Brown). Maybe swap Connoly for Pominiville just to even out salaries (5.7 to 4.8) and add a 3rd rounder from Chicago. However, i think your line combos are a bit off:

Daze-Drury-Satan
Hecht-Briere-Kotalik
Pyatt-Mair-S. Thomas (please oh please)
Peters-Roy-Afinogenov/Dumont

Zhitnik-Kalinin
Klemm-Tallinder
Campbell/Delmore-Patrick/Fitzpatrick.

Buffalo could package Satan and Dumont/Afinogenov and even Zhitnik too to get a #1 D-man in return.

I could live with that.

One thing that really worries me, no matter what happens. Ruff loves to switch lines when things are going well. Imagine what it could be like this year.

Ajacied 09-22-2003 12:39 PM

At the current stage of their careers, McKee is probably on par with Klemm. That leaves Daze for a 3rd line center..?

The Hawks might need Defense, but they don't aquire any of it with this move by trading away their best one.

Awful trading partners, Hawks need D, Sabres need D.

Volchenkov 09-22-2003 12:49 PM

This proposal is worse than anything I have ever proposed. :D

Ghost of Dale Hunter 09-22-2003 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Volchenkov
This proposal is worse than anything I have ever proposed. :D

That is saying alot. Tell me why?

Ghost of Dale Hunter 09-22-2003 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Modano = God
At the current stage of their careers, McKee is probably on par with Klemm. That leaves Daze for a 3rd line center..?

The Hawks might need Defense, but they don't aquire any of it with this move by trading away their best one.

Awful trading partners, Hawks need D, Sabres need D.

I just don't see the Defense problem in Buffalo.

Zhitnik,Tallinder and Kalinin all can play heavy minutes. Campbell was very steady the last half of last year.

Delmore is basically a specialist playing 8-12 minutes a game.

So, that means McKee plays a lot of minutes or you bring in somebody(Klemm, in my proposal) to fill the spot.

They also have Patrick, Fitzpatrick, Bouchard, Janik who can step in and play solidly over the short term.

It might not be an all star defense, but I ouldnt classify it as a weakness either.

Volchenkov 09-22-2003 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost of Dale Hunter
That is saying alot. Tell me why?

good comeback... :)

Jon Klemm, although he is only an average to above average defenseman is still effectively their #1 defenseman and his value to the team is greater than his trade value. Jay McKee may or may not be better (there pretty close IMO) but I doubt they would trade the two straight up. That leaves us with:

Brown + Pominville for Daze

The Blackhawks primary weakness is scoring - they can't afford to give up their best offensive player. The defense was fine last year before Thibault (and the whole team) collapsed. The Hawks have Arnason and now Ruutu who are both great two-way players, what do they need curtis brown for? He's a 30-35 point scorer at this stage of his career. If they want a similar player they could have signed Magnus Arvedson. Daze is a 35-70 point player (at least) Brown is a 35 point player. Intagibles and a depth prospect don't come close to bridging the gap. Add Derek Roy into the mix and you have an interesting deal.

To sum up: The hawks have a butload of prospects better than Pominville, they don't need a checking forward and they don't want McKee more than Klemm, thus there is absolutely no need to trade away their only legitimate scoring threat. It would be like the leafs trading Kaberle away.

Ghost of Dale Hunter 09-22-2003 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Volchenkov
good comeback... :)

Jon Klemm, although he is only an average to above average defenseman is still effectively their #1 defenseman and his value to the team is greater than his trade value. Jay McKee may or may not be better (there pretty close IMO) but I doubt they would trade the two straight up. That leaves us with:

Brown + Pominville for Daze

The Blackhawks primary weakness is scoring - they can't afford to give up their best offensive player. The defense was fine last year before Thibault (and the whole team) collapsed. The Hawks have Arnason and now Ruutu who are both great two-way players, what do they need curtis brown for? He's a 30-35 point scorer at this stage of his career. If they want a similar player they could have signed Magnus Arvedson. Daze is a 35-70 point player (at least) Brown is a 35 point player. Intagibles and a depth prospect don't come close to bridging the gap. Add Derek Roy into the mix and you have an interesting deal.

To sum up: The hawks have a butload of prospects better than Pominville, they don't need a checking forward and they don't want McKee more than Klemm, thus there is absolutely no need to trade away their only legitimate scoring threat. It would be like the leafs trading Kaberle away.

From that point of view I cna see your point. How about making it Tyler Arnanson(spelling?) and a prospect instead of Daze?

Volchenkov 09-22-2003 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost of Dale Hunter
From that point of view I cna see your point. How about making it Tyler Arnanson(spelling?) and a prospect instead of Daze?

Who would you rather have - Curtis Brown or Tyler Arnason? Arnason outscored Brown last year in his rookie season and is a very good two-way player. He might not be as good defensivley but he's already better offensively.

If you want Daze you'd have to trade a top prospect in the mix.
This is my feel for a fair proposal for Daze

Roy + Miller for Daze

The reasoning is basically that Daze has the capability to score 40 goals, very few players can do that (heck the sens only have one).

Ghost of Dale Hunter 09-22-2003 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Volchenkov
Who would you rather have - Curtis Brown or Tyler Arnason? Arnason outscored Brown last year in his rookie season and is a very good two-way player. He might not be as good defensivley but he's already better offensively.

If you want Daze you'd have to trade a top prospect in the mix.
This is my feel for a fair proposal for Daze

Roy + Miller for Daze

The reasoning is basically that Daze has the capability to score 40 goals, very few players can do that (heck the sens only have one).

You're probably right, i cant see Buffalo willing to spend that sort of capital.

I ubmit that Brown could be highly effective taken way from Ruff. I think he is one of Ruff's victims here.

Volchenkov 09-22-2003 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost of Dale Hunter
You're probably right, i cant see Buffalo willing to spend that sort of capital.

I ubmit that Brown could be highly effective taken way from Ruff. I think he is one of Ruff's victims here.

here's hoping that Varada was a victim of ruff (he hasn't impressed me much as a senator).

I would be willing to give up our #2 and #3 prospects (vermette and kaigorodov) for Daze plus we'd throw in Varada :). I'm not making that as a proposal (I'm too tired too think right now) just that would be the minimum to get Daze.

fullmetalninja 09-22-2003 01:36 PM

We won't move anyone for something other than young dmen... McKee is a good player, but its a lateral move.

IF We need to get anything, its an under 30 blueliner who is physical and can log a lot of minutes. We have Babchuk and Kukkonen who are on the cusp of making the team- and D Keith, Michael Barinka, J Wisniewski, V Gusev and Seabrook all waiting in the wings. NOw which(if any) will turn out to be a top 4 guy... who knows. But lateral moves like McKee doesn't help...

-fullmetalninja

KillToronto 09-22-2003 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Volchenkov

If you want Daze you'd have to trade a top prospect in the mix.
This is my feel for a fair proposal for Daze

Roy + Miller for Daze

The reasoning is basically that Daze has the capability to score 40 goals, very few players can do that (heck the sens only have one).

So we give up what is widely regarded as the best goaltending prospect in the NHL, and a player who has been likened to Theo Fleury for Daze? I don't like it. At all. Daze has only scored above 57 points once. I think in Roy's future, he will score that many in at least one of his seasons. He will probably score more. Plus he is way younger. And if Miller pans out, we will be left with one of the best young goalies in the NHL. That's why I would never in my life do this deal as a Sabres fan.

Ghost of Dale Hunter 09-22-2003 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Volchenkov
here's hoping that Varada was a victim of ruff (he hasn't impressed me much as a senator).

I would be willing to give up our #2 and #3 prospects (vermette and kaigorodov) for Daze plus we'd throw in Varada :). I'm not making that as a proposal (I'm too tired too think right now) just that would be the minimum to get Daze.

You know Varada, he just kills me, he flashs offensive potential every so often and he is a bear to play against. Some day, he is gonna score 25 goals and someone like ilbury will throw 3m per at him and youll never hear from him again.

You guys will really enjoy him in Ottawa this year, except once, about every 5 games, he will take an incredibly stupid penalty that will totally exasperate you. But I guess thats what comes with the package. He is great in playoff time too.

Kritty 09-22-2003 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Volchenkov
Who would you rather have - Curtis Brown or Tyler Arnason? Arnason outscored Brown last year in his rookie season and is a very good two-way player. He might not be as good defensivley but he's already better offensively.

If you want Daze you'd have to trade a top prospect in the mix.
This is my feel for a fair proposal for Daze

Roy + Miller for Daze

The reasoning is basically that Daze has the capability to score 40 goals, very few players can do that (heck the sens only have one).

Ouch, this one hurts Buffalo bad. I highly doubt they are going to trade a possible future star goalie alone for Daze, let alone add in another very good prospect like Roy. Roy will most likely put up the same numbers as Daze. Yes he will lack the size but he makes up for it with his gritty style of play. As someone said, a good comparison is Theo Fleury minus the off-ice problems. I really don't see Buffalo doing. If they are moving a young goalie, I would think Biron and/or Noronen will go ahead of Miller, unless the deal is just too good to pass on.

Darth Milbury 09-22-2003 02:22 PM

First, I think some of you are seriously underrating Mckee. He is a very solid, youngish physical dman. He could probably play in the top four on nearly any team in the NHL. Not to take anything away from Klemm, but Mckee's market value is far higher. I would dance in the streets if the Isles acquired him.

Second, I think it is extremely unlikely that Buffalo trades Miller. "Extremely unlikely" being a possibility of nil.

Third, I find if funny that the same Buffalo fans who, just two days ago, insisted that Satan's 26 goals qualified him as a "superstar" and "sure thing for 50 goals and 100 points" are now willing to write off Daze's production. Daze has had three 30 goal seasons, and one 70 point season. Satan has had four 30 goal seasons (I'm counting his 29 goal season) and only two seasons with 70+ points. There isn't much, if any, difference in the trade values of the two players. You guys were expecting the moon and sun for Satan. Accordingly, don't expect to get a scorer like Daze on the cheap.

Ghost of Dale Hunter 09-22-2003 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
First, I think some of you are seriously underrating Mckee. He is a very solid, youngish physical dman. He could probably play in the top four on nearly any team in the NHL. Not to take anything away from Klemm, but Mckee's market value is far higher. I would dance in the streets if the Isles acquired him.

Second, I think it is extremely unlikely that Buffalo trades Miller. "Extremely unlikely" being a possibility of nil.

Third, I find if funny that the same Buffalo fans who, just two days ago, insisted that Satan's 26 goals qualified him as a "superstar" and "sure thing for 50 goals and 100 points" are now willing to write off Daze's production. Daze has had three 30 goal seasons, and one 70 point season. Satan has had four 30 goal seasons (I'm counting his 29 goal season) and only two seasons with 70+ points. There isn't much, if any, difference in the trade values of the two players. You guys were expecting the moon and sun for Satan. Accordingly, don't expect to get a scorer like Daze on the cheap.

I based my original proposal based on Mckee being the key player for Chicago and Daze for Buffalo. I agree with your assessment of McKee.

As for the Roy and Miller proposal..Just wont happen...ever.

The Real 09-22-2003 03:02 PM

Darth was mostly right in my opinion.

However, I don't see the comparison statistically that he made as being accurate. An extra 70 point, 30 goal season does make you more valuable. Both players are 28 years old. Satan has over 460 points opposed to Daze with roughly 380.

That statistical margin does in fact matter. In value on the market financially as well in actual trade value.

Still, it would take more than Norm Milley and two pucks to pry Mr. Daze out of Chi Town though. So, if the Sabres want Daze they better be willing to fess up Noronen, high draft pick, +.

Teemu 09-22-2003 03:04 PM

My comments

Trade #1 (Daze-Klemm Mckee-Brown-Pominville)

Ow. Id take McKee over Klemm any day of the week, especially considering Klemm'll be an UFA, but we dont get very much in return from Daze here. Brown is a good 3rd line center, but we already have arnason and ruutu, so he'd just get lost in the mix. Pominville is a good sniper, but we already have 2 other RW snipers in Radulov and Vorobiev in the wings this year, and he might not ever see a chance to see ice time.

Trade #2 (Arnason+Prospect Brown)
This one i could live with, depending on who the prospect is. We're very deep with prospects, and i dont know what buffalo needs. we would probably be giving away someone like Nordqvist or Wennerberg.

Trade #3 (Daze Roy-Miller)
Cmon now, buffalo wouldnt do this. frankly, i dont know if we would either. we're already the deepest orginization in young goaltending talent, so we would have a massive overload if we added another.
on a related note, Roy has been compared to Fleury? damn, we dont want him then :p

Volchenkov 09-22-2003 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teemu08
My comments

Trade #3 (Daze Roy-Miller)
Cmon now, buffalo wouldnt do this. frankly, i dont know if we would either. we're already the deepest orginization in young goaltending talent, so we would have a massive overload if we added another.
on a related note, Roy has been compared to Fleury? damn, we dont want him then :p

The Sabres can afford to give up Miller and Chicago doesn't have any top-tier goalie prospects. Daze is easily the best player in the deal and well worth it for the Sabres.

WhoIsJimBob 09-23-2003 03:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost of Dale Hunter
Sabres get Eric Daze and Jon Klemm

Hawks get Jay Mckee , Curtis Brown, Pominville

Hawks upgrade defense, Brown slides into 3 slot behind Ruutu and Zhamnov.

Buffalo gets some size on the wing and I think Klemm would fit nicely into buffalo's pairings with someone like Brian Campbell or Kalinin.

I think Buffalo gets the satan deal done, I just don't get the feeling Mckee is really wanted anymore.

Sabres potential lineup.

Kotalik - Briere-Dumont
Daze - Drury - Satan
Pyatt - Hecht -Afinogenov
Mair - Roy - Peters
Begin,Connolly

Zhitnik Kalinin
Campbell Tallinder
Delmore Klemm

Patrick, Bouchard

Biron, Noronen

I'd say regardless of what happens it comes down to Connolly or Roy for the last roster spot.

Mike Smith would want a Russian going his way.;)

But I would do the lines up like this:

Kotalik-Drury-Satan
Daze-Briere-Dumont (French Connection ver 2.0)
Pyatt-Roy-Afinogenov
Hecht-Connolly-Mair
Boulton/Peters-Begin

Zhitnik-Klemm
Campbell-Patrick
Kalinin-Delmore
Fitzpatrick/Tallinder (Tallinder could get sent down if they make the decision based on money as he's the only guy, besides Roy, that is slated for Buffalo that's on a two way deal)

Biron
Noronen

KillToronto 09-23-2003 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Volchenkov
The Sabres can afford to give up Miller and Chicago doesn't have any top-tier goalie prospects. Daze is easily the best player in the deal and well worth it for the Sabres.

Not if we haveta give up a player who could be just as good as Daze in Roy.

Roy's Potential =/< Daze

So basically its a potential franchise goalie going to Chicago for free.

I would rather keep Roy than have Daze. And I sure as hell would rather keep Roy and Miller than have Daze.

WhoIsJimBob 09-23-2003 04:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Volchenkov
The Sabres can afford to give up Miller and Chicago doesn't have any top-tier goalie prospects. Daze is easily the best player in the deal and well worth it for the Sabres.

You won't see Miller or Roy traded away anytime soon.

Management has already passed on deals that are better than this in order to keep Miller and Roy is a player that management loves and the fans can't wait to see. Roy is the Sabres version of Jiri Hudler.

I like Daze, but not enough to give up either Miller or Roy, let alone both of them.

LALALALALALAFONTAINE 09-23-2003 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost of Dale Hunter
You know Varada, he just kills me, he flashs offensive potential every so often and he is a bear to play against. Some day, he is gonna score 25 goals and someone like ilbury will throw 3m per at him and youll never hear from him again.

You guys will really enjoy him in Ottawa this year, except once, about every 5 games, he will take an incredibly stupid penalty that will totally exasperate you. But I guess thats what comes with the package. He is great in playoff time too.

31 PIM last year.

I wish we still had Varada. Hopefully Klepis changes my mind.


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