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-   -   'Veteran' leadership lacks humility and point fingers (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1335043)

CardMonkey83* 01-28-2013 06:33 AM

'Veteran' leadership lacks humility and point fingers
 
Sun Tzu - (Paraphrased) 'Keeping an open mind, knowing your mistakes and acknowledging your errors is the key to learn about ones self. Once you know yourself, you can know your followers, and then you can know your enemy; it is then that you can call yourself a leader'

Shawn Horcoff (via edmonton journal): “We still aren’t learning,” said captain Shawn Horcoff. “It’s a mindset, it is patience, and that comes from experience. We’re young, we’re inexperienced, and we’re showing it at the start of games.'
-Pointing the fingers at the 'young' players. I don't even have to say anything here, ya'll know the 411 on Orc-off. As captain, you would think he would have a more TEAM mindset, it's the entire team, including him and all the other veterans that needs to improve. As captain, he needs to promote a team attitude, not: 'I'm captain, I'm a veteran, I'm perfect and these young guys that i'm jealous of, are the only ones making the mistakes for the sheer fact they are young and that causes us to lose.' C'mon Shawn. You've single handedly lost us games last season, while our 'young in-experience players' clutch more games than we deserved.

Devan Dubnyk (post game San Jose) "It was one game, the team still has alot of work to do defensively. They played great in the 2nd and 3rd, wish they did that for me in the 1st"
-6 goals in one period, doesn't even acknowledge that he let some weak ones through, or goalie rust or what not. Just blamed the defense, which is PARTLY why that 1st period went down the way it did, but he needs to take repsponsibliity as well, that a horrid performance from him, and blaming his defenders will not take any heat off of him.

The veterans are hurting this team more than helping it. They are bad influences on building the culture of the oilers and this needs to be rectified.

Hoogaar23 01-28-2013 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TayBerle HopKov (Post 58515867)
Shawn Horcoff (via edmonton journal): “We still aren’t learning,” said captain Shawn Horcoff. “It’s a mindset, it is patience, and that comes from experience. We’re young, we’re inexperienced, and we’re showing it at the start of games.'

Yup - Teflon Shawn at his finest. When the team wins and he doesn't do a thing, he'll be happy to include himself as a key part of the team's success, but when we lose, well, certainly can't have a thing to do with him - it must the young inexperienced guys.

jumptheshark 01-28-2013 06:40 AM

The are not learning

Fourier 01-28-2013 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jumptheshark (Post 58515943)
The are not learning

Who's not learning? The top line together with Gagner and Yakupov have generated all the offense. And the first line has yet to give up an ES goal against.

Horcoff and Smyth have done their job defensively but as a line they have not even come close to threatening to score.

The line of Gagner, Yakupov and Hemsky has been victimized the most, but of these three I'd say that it is clearly been Hemsky who has been MIA as far as being defensively responsible. Yakupov has been surprisingly good give his rep and the fact that he has played 4 NHL game. Gagner at least seems to be giving it 100%.

Hemsky, the teams one true vet in the top 6 has been dogging it all year.

Psycho Dad 01-28-2013 07:34 AM

Well, let's break down the first 10-15 minutes of each game:

G1 (VAN): Hall takes a bad penalty early. Midway through the first, Yakupov's weak pass is picked off, Vancouver rushes, Potter collapses low too early and Edler pots an easy slapper. Okay, it's the kids here.

G2 (SJS): Hemsky holding penalty. Petry tripping penalty. San Jose scores two on the resulting 5-on-3 and 5-on-4 power plays. Yakupov misses receiving an outlet pass to clear the zone and Marleau promptly scores. Potter takes an incredibly stupid roughing penalty, and San Jose scores again on the resulting power play. Not solely the kids here.

G3 (LA): Horcoff with a bad interference penalty. Smid with a chintzy cross-check against D-bag Brown. Smid with the double minor for instigating with a visor. Seems like the vets are to blame here.

G4 (CGY): Rotten collapse by Smid/Petry, no support by Smyth/Horcoff, Backlund scores. Eberle penalty, no scoring. Hordichuk takes stupid crosscheck penalty at Flames net, Flames score just after penalty is over. Mostly the vets here.

I'd say Dubnyk hasn't been stellar in the losses but he's not getting much help. The team failed him vs. San Jose, no question. His quote is bang-on correct.

I'd also mention that rust is a bigger problem than youth and inexperience. Sorry Shawn. Point the finger at everyone, not just the kids.

Alex87 01-28-2013 07:53 AM

My god, if anyone actually thinks that Horcoff quote is pointing fingers at anyone, then the Horcoff hate has really reached ridiculous levels.

CardMonkey83* 01-28-2013 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex87 (Post 58517055)
My god, if anyone actually thinks that Horcoff quote is pointing fingers at anyone, then the Horcoff hate has really reached ridiculous levels.

It's the fact he's the captain, and doesn't take responsibility for the team's losses like a real captain should. Yes, inexperience and youth are factors in our lack of a solid form, but he is the leader of the oilers, it is his job to guide the kids, not allocate the reason for losing games to the kids all the time.

If he really listened to the fans and the criticism, he would've changed and improved his game by now, but instead, he is stuck in his own world where he is King Hockey

Moose Coleman 01-28-2013 08:14 AM

Clearly the problem is the Oilers have too many players who can shave.

Lessy 01-28-2013 08:20 AM

I think we're grasping for straws trying to draw something from these quotes. I didn't want to read the entire buyout thread but what's the consensus that Horcoff gets bought out this summer? Say he puts up 20 points in 48 games. Buyout? Keep? Sorry if this hijacks the thread just curious.

Horseradish 01-28-2013 08:29 AM

I'm sorry but am I the only one who thinks he's completely correct in his comments?!

WTF, it's true. They're not learning, they are young, and it will take time, as he says.

Hoogaar23 01-28-2013 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horseradish (Post 58517939)
I'm sorry but am I the only one who thinks he's completely correct in his comments?!

WTF, it's true. They're not learning, they are young, and it will take time, as he says.

The point is, as a leader, you shouldn't be deflecting blame for the losses on to the kids while absolving yourself and other vets. "We're young, we're inexperienced..." - do you really think he was including himself in that?

The accuracy of his statement in my opinion is irrelevant. Scapegoating like that is a sign of poor leadership, and it's not the first time he says stuff like that.

You're the leader? You take it on the chin. Compare Iginla interviews after a tough loss with Horcoff ones. The contrast is staggering.

missinthejets 01-28-2013 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TayBerle HopKov (Post 58517211)
It's the fact he's the captain, and doesn't take responsibility for the team's losses like a real captain should. Yes, inexperience and youth are factors in our lack of a solid form, but he is the leader of the oilers, it is his job to guide the kids, not allocate the reason for losing games to the kids all the time.

If he really listened to the fans and the criticism, he would've changed and improved his game by now, but instead, he is stuck in his own world where he is King Hockey

Put down the haterade... he used the word we 4 times in the quote you dug out... I don't see pointing blame at anyone simply stating the facts. Hardly a me first attitude when he's got that many we'res in there. Is there anything wrong with what he said if you don't have an irrational horcoff hatred? The oilers are young and inexperienced and it is showing... What's he supposed to say? He's not singling anyone out, he's lumping everyone into the same boat which is what a captain should do. It's only people who don't like him to start with that start reading things into quotes that aren't there that are the problem.

CardMonkey83* 01-28-2013 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by missinthejets (Post 58518343)
Put down the haterade... he used the word we 4 times in the quote you dug out... I don't see pointing blame at anyone simply stating the facts. Hardly a me first attitude when he's got that many we'res in there. Is there anything wrong with what he said if you don't have an irrational horcoff hatred? The oilers are young and inexperienced and it is showing... What's he supposed to say? He's not singling anyone out, he's lumping everyone into the same boat which is what a captain should do. It's only people who don't like him to start with that start reading things into quotes that aren't there that are the problem.

'We' is just a cover word my friend. You think when he says young and inexperienced, he's including himself? Really? I don't HATE horcoff, but i think his lack of being an example the kids should follow is pathetic

CardMonkey83* 01-28-2013 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoogaar23 (Post 58518211)
The point is, as a leader, you shouldn't be deflecting blame for the losses on to the kids while absolving yourself and other vets. "We're young, we're inexperienced..." - do you really think he was including himself in that?

The accuracy of his statement in my opinion is irrelevant. Scapegoating like that is a sign of poor leadership, and it's not the first time he says stuff like that.

You're the leader? You take it on the chin. Compare Iginla interviews after a tough loss with Horcoff ones. The contrast is staggering.

The word of the Lord. Amen

worraps 01-28-2013 08:54 AM

Horcoff is fooling himself if he thinks it is the inexperience of the kids that is causing bad starts but he has a point in that the whole team, veterans and all, have been very undisciplined at the start of games.

CornKicker 01-28-2013 09:00 AM

i wonder if horcoff knows that part of his job is to get the team ready to play.

Replacement 01-28-2013 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TayBerle HopKov (Post 58517211)
It's the fact he's the captain, and doesn't take responsibility for the team's losses like a real captain should. Yes, inexperience and youth are factors in our lack of a solid form, but he is the leader of the oilers, it is his job to guide the kids, not allocate the reason for losing games to the kids all the time.

If he really listened to the fans and the criticism, he would've changed and improved his game by now, but instead, he is stuck in his own world where he is King Hockey

How should Horcoff take responsibility for others mistakes and lack of attention to detail?

Should he take responsibility for the kids not helping OKC have a better record in the AHL as well.

Fact of the matter is these kids pay little attention to all zone play and are often getting burned by veteran teams that can steal their lunch money.

If I go into work today should I take responsibility for every coworkers mistakes last week that happen through lack of on the job experience. Should I overwork to try to compensate and neglect my own work?

How do I be a team member with a collection of individuals that don't yet know what its like to be a member of a team because they haven't bought in?

I'll give people a clue here. Ryan Smyth can play many places in the world and have young kids, established players, taking cues and responding to his leadership. He recently did this in the Davos cup where he was instrumental in leading the way. But Smyth will only ever go as far as the rest of the club is prepared to take it. If he gets a notion that others aren't following its possible some frustration or confusion sets in.

The specific trouble with a team where the young players are the stars is that they are possibly susceptible to thinking they have no veteran that can lead them. Other clubs we've played don't have this problem. No problem with kids listening to Thornton and Marleau because they're two of the best veterans in the league. Similarly with the Sedins, similarly with Igninla. We have a bunch of young talented forwards, but we don't have a veteran star forward to lead them. I wonder whether the kids tend to turn their nose at Smyth, Horcoff, or even some of the vets down in OKC. Would that be Smyth and Horcoff's fault specifically?

If your a young star do you listen readily?

We've had coach after coach here suggesting the team isn't buying in. At some point of losing perhaps young players could be more amenable to listening to team concept, strategies, and team system play and not approaching the game as individuals?

joestevens29 01-28-2013 09:07 AM

They are young and inexperienced. How many times have you seen the kids dump the puck when they have no where to go? They don't, instead they try beat the defenders and turn the puck over at the line. Need to get the puck deep and on net, not lose it at the blueline.

Prv seems to have realized this though.

The Last Dynasty 01-28-2013 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TayBerle HopKov (Post 58518411)
'We' is just a cover word my friend. You think when he says young and inexperienced, he's including himself? Really? I don't HATE horcoff, but i think his lack of being an example the kids should follow is pathetic

He's talking about the guys that plays the most
ie. the top line and Justin Schultz

they are inexperienced, young and are trying WAY too hard at this point. Doesn't help that the 3rd line has been utter garbage but I digress

Replacement 01-28-2013 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horseradish (Post 58517939)
I'm sorry but am I the only one who thinks he's completely correct in his comments?!

WTF, it's true. They're not learning, they are young, and it will take time, as he says.

They're getting beat by experience due to being inexperienced. Basically what he said. I dare anybody to watch the Calgary game again and challenge anything that was said.

nabob 01-28-2013 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Last Dynasty (Post 58519237)
He's talking about the guys that plays the most
ie. the top line and Justin Schultz

they are inexperienced, young and are trying WAY too hard at this point. Doesn't help that the 3rd line has been utter garbage but I digress

They are also the only reason as to why the team has 2 wins so far this season.

And Dubnyk's quote is bang on. The team played like total garbage in the first against San Jose.

nabob 01-28-2013 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joestevens29 (Post 58519187)
They are young and inexperienced. How many times have you seen the kids dump the puck when they have no where to go? They don't, instead they try beat the defenders and turn the puck over at the line. Need to get the puck deep and on net, not lose it at the blueline.

Prv seems to have realized this though.

So maybe a weak shot (dump in) from the boards on a 1 on 3 rush where your linemates are changing isnt such a god awful play after all. It for sure is a much better move than trying to deak or pass through 3 players and then turning the puck over for an odd man rush against. But screw that HF loves dangles not smart hockey.

Dorian2 01-28-2013 09:40 AM

That's a pretty nifty slant on things OP.

Taking a part of an interview and turning it into another Horcoff hate thread.

So are you saying the young players ARE experienced and "get it"?

Like Replacement said, watch the Calgary game again if you must. Our team was totally schooled by that team.

c4fn8d 01-28-2013 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Replacement (Post 58519451)
They're getting beat by experience due to being inexperienced. Basically what he said. I dare anybody to watch the Calgary game again and challenge anything that was said.

What I saw? Horcoff interference with a Flame skating through the crease causing a penalty. I saw Belanger pulling on a jersey of a Flame who beat him causing another powerplay for the Flames. I see an ineffective bottom six who still have no goals in 4 games.

I also saw a 3 on 2 rush where Horc tried to skate it in rather than pass to an open Hall.

You are right Horc, your learning is done. Don't take dumb penalties. I know why you did it, because you are frustrated. But that penalty was selfish and you know it.

Does anyone think Smyth or Horcoff will score 10 goals this season? Do they have any shots on net yet?

alphahelix 01-28-2013 09:44 AM

Remember how much we all hated Moreau for making comments like this? He was a Golden God and the rest of the team were saps? (Well .. turns out there were quite a few saps)

But anyway, I think that if you have the 'C' on the Oilers of all teams, this kind of talk is inexcusable. ESPECIALLY if you're not Wayne Gretzky. Horcoff isn't going to lead ANYONE 'by example' to a stanley cup, or a presidents trophy, or a division title, or a victory in a game, or a goal. Maybe he can get a shot on net. If this type of player is Captain, they better learn to lead with their brain on and off the ice. They aren't allowed to say crap like this, in my books.


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