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-   -   Satan Value/Buffalo possibilites.... (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=13354)

TehDoak 09-22-2003 11:43 AM

Satan Value/Buffalo possibilites....
 
With the Satan holdout and Buffalo's overflow at forward (in quantity, not quality), and buffalo's several big holes, just curious as to what the market is.

These are the players who, in my estimation, are expendable: Connoly, one of Dumont or Afinogenov, and Brown. Also, Zhitnik is going to be a UFA at the end of the season, so his value is highest now.

Some ideas:

Package Satan and Zhitnik for a young, somewhat cheap (3-4 million) #1 d-man and top notch prospect from a team who is looking to win the cup THIS season. they can dump the salary of Zhitnik after this season and can keep Satan long term.

Some ideas:

To Ottawa: Zhintik and Satan
To Buffalo: Redden and Schastlivy

Ottawa adds a dangerous 2 way sniper and Buffalo's blueline corps are much improved. Maybe toss in Connoly or a 2nd round pick from Buffalo to even it out, though, I don't know if this really helps the Sens cup chances.

To Buffalo: Jovonowski/Ohlund and Fedorov
To Vancouver: Satan and Zhintik.

Buffalo gets their #1 D-man, Vancouver gets great scoring from the 2nd line. Zhitnik takes over the #2 spot for whichever d-man Buffalo gets.

Darth Milbury 09-22-2003 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdoak
With the Satan holdout and Buffalo's overflow at forward (in quantity, not quality), and buffalo's several big holes, just curious as to what the market is.

These are the players who, in my estimation, are expendable: Connoly, one of Dumont or Afinogenov, and Brown. Also, Zhitnik is going to be a UFA at the end of the season, so his value is highest now.

Some ideas:

Package Satan and Zhitnik for a young, somewhat cheap (3-4 million) #1 d-man and top notch prospect from a team who is looking to win the cup THIS season. they can dump the salary of Zhitnik after this season and can keep Satan long term.

Some ideas:

To Ottawa: Zhintik and Satan
To Buffalo: Redden and Schastlivy

Ottawa adds a dangerous 2 way sniper and Buffalo's blueline corps are much improved. Maybe toss in Connoly or a 2nd round pick from Buffalo to even it out, though, I don't know if this really helps the Sens cup chances.

To Buffalo: Jovonowski/Ohlund and Fedorov
To Vancouver: Satan and Zhintik.

Buffalo gets their #1 D-man, Vancouver gets great scoring from the 2nd line. Zhitnik takes over the #2 spot for whichever d-man Buffalo gets.


Neither deal works. The SENS don't need more scoring, and the Nucks lack defensive depth as it is. And, in both cases, you are seriously overestimating Satan's trade value.

Satan is a two-way guy who gets 70 points a year, and seems to be asking for reasonable numbers. I'm confident that the Sabres could get something good for him, if he was really going to be dealt. I just don't think you'll get elite dmen like Redden or Jovocop.

Kritty 09-22-2003 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdoak
With the Satan holdout and Buffalo's overflow at forward (in quantity, not quality), and buffalo's several big holes, just curious as to what the market is.

These are the players who, in my estimation, are expendable: Connoly, one of Dumont or Afinogenov, and Brown. Also, Zhitnik is going to be a UFA at the end of the season, so his value is highest now.

Some ideas:

Package Satan and Zhitnik for a young, somewhat cheap (3-4 million) #1 d-man and top notch prospect from a team who is looking to win the cup THIS season. they can dump the salary of Zhitnik after this season and can keep Satan long term.

Some ideas:

To Ottawa: Zhintik and Satan
To Buffalo: Redden and Schastlivy

Ottawa adds a dangerous 2 way sniper and Buffalo's blueline corps are much improved. Maybe toss in Connoly or a 2nd round pick from Buffalo to even it out, though, I don't know if this really helps the Sens cup chances.

To Buffalo: Jovonowski/Ohlund and Fedorov
To Vancouver: Satan and Zhintik.

Buffalo gets their #1 D-man, Vancouver gets great scoring from the 2nd line. Zhitnik takes over the #2 spot for whichever d-man Buffalo gets.

There is no way you will land an elite young dman like Jovo or Redden, or anyone in that category, for Satan and Zhitnik. That's just not good enough value for star defencemen. These guys are very hard to come by and are nearly impossible to trade for. I think it would have to be extreme circumstances for any of these guys to be dealt. I think Buffalo is better served sticking with a youth movement and dealing for a unestablished dman with upside and then developing those dmen. The Sabres are a few years away from being a perennial playoff team so they should groom their young talent to prepare for that time.

Cerebral 09-22-2003 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
and the Nucks lack defensive depth as it is.

Didn't Burke just finish saying he felt he had 8 NHL ready d-men in Vancouver (pardon me if i'm wrong, I just read this in passing). Regardless of what their GM said, Vancouver definitely doesn't have a boatload of top-end d-men. I don't see them trading away one of their top 2 (who I'm positive Burke just finished saying would be playing marathon minutes this season) just to strengthen their second line scoring.

TehDoak 09-22-2003 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerebral
Didn't Burke just finish saying he felt he had 8 NHL ready d-men in Vancouver (pardon me if i'm wrong, I just read this in passing). Regardless of what their GM said, Vancouver definitely doesn't have a boatload of top-end d-men. I don't see them trading away one of their top 2 (who I'm positive Burke just finished saying would be playing marathon minutes this season) just to strengthen their second line scoring.

Zhitnik could fill in comperably as a #2 D-man, even if only for a year. True, he would be a downgrade for one of those 2, but he would easily log their minutes though the big downfall would be the offensive production. I think I may have overshot Satan's value here though. What do you guys feel that Satan could fetch? I would imagine a young winger with top line potential and a 1st would be a start.

Darth Milbury 09-22-2003 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdoak
Zhitnik could fill in comperably as a #2 D-man, even if only for a year. True, he would be a downgrade for one of those 2, but he would easily log their minutes though the big downfall would be the offensive production. I think I may have overshot Satan's value here though. What do you guys feel that Satan could fetch? I would imagine a young winger with top line potential and a 1st would be a start.

Too much. Maybe a young winger with second line potential (like a Mark Parrish type) and a 1st rounder. A top three forward and a 1st rounder is too much to expect.

Peter Griffin 09-22-2003 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdoak
Package Satan and Zhitnik for a young, somewhat cheap (3-4 million) #1 d-man and top notch prospect from a team who is looking to win the cup THIS season. they can dump the salary of Zhitnik after this season and can keep Satan long term.

Why would a team that is looking to challenge for the cup trade away a #1 d-man, unless of course they are loaded with them, which no team is. It doesn't make sense IMO as it would just open up another hole,a harder hole to fill. Zhitnik isn't a #1 d-man and is probably at best a #3 on most top teams in the league.

Quote:

To Buffalo: Jovonowski/Ohlund and Fedorov
To Vancouver: Satan and Zhintik

Buffalo gets their #1 D-man, Vancouver gets great scoring from the 2nd line. Zhitnik takes over the #2 spot for whichever d-man Buffalo gets.
I wouldn't even consider that deal from a Canucks' perspective. I like Satan and would love to have him on the Canucks, but #1 d-man are far to valuable in this league, and the Canucks, or any contending team for that matter, can't afford to trade one away.

The best bet to get a #1 d-man or someone who could become a #1 guy is the Isles IMO. They could use some offensive help and could part with Roman Hamrlik to get it. Could be a fit there, maybe something like this:

To Buffalo:

Roman Hamrlik
Dave Scatchard
pick/prospect


To Islanders

Miroslav Satan
Jay McKee

Just a thought...

Darth Milbury 09-22-2003 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Griffin
Why would a team that is looking to challenge for the cup trade away a #1 d-man, unless of course they are loaded with them, which no team is. It doesn't make sense IMO as it would just open up another hole,a harder hole to fill. Zhitnik isn't a #1 d-man and is probably at best a #3 on most top teams in the league.



I wouldn't even consider that deal from a Canucks' perspective. I like Satan and would love to have him on the Canucks, but #1 d-man are far to valuable in this league, and the Canucks, or any contending team for that matter, can't afford to trade one away.

The best bet to get a #1 d-man or someone who could become a #1 guy is the Isles IMO. They could use some offensive help and could part with Roman Hamrlik to get it. Could be a fit there, maybe something like this:

To Buffalo:

Roman Hamrlik
Dave Scatchard
pick/prospect


To Islanders

Miroslav Satan
Jay McKee

Just a thought...


Hamrlik and Scatch both have contracts that expire next summer and they're both due for raises. For those reasons, I doubt Buffalo would do this.

Peter Griffin 09-22-2003 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Hamrlik and Scatch both have contracts that expire next summer and they're both due for raises. For those reasons, I doubt Buffalo would do this.

I didn't know that. I guess it all depends on how much Satan and McKee are asking for, but in the end, they'll probably make around the same ammount as Hamrlik and Scatchard could get next off-season. In any case, do you think the values are close? Do you think the Isles would even consider moving Hamrlik?

TehDoak 09-23-2003 03:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Griffin


To Buffalo:

Roman Hamrlik
Dave Scatchard
pick/prospect


To Islanders

Miroslav Satan
Jay McKee

Just a thought...

A few thoughts. Zhitnik is still a solid #2 without the two way play. He can log 30+ minutes a game with no problem, can chip in a little offensivly, and is solid in his own end. The Biggest problem with this deal is that Buffalo is just getting back another player that they are full of, defensive forwards. Also, a big concern i would have is that Hamrilik could be a UFA depending on what happens with the CBA agreement, which would make the Isles winners by a landslide in this deal. Not too bad of a deal, but i don't think it would ever happen.

Ajacied 09-23-2003 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Neither deal works. The SENS don't need more scoring, and the Nucks lack defensive depth as it is. And, in both cases, you are seriously overestimating Satan's trade value.

Satan is a two-way guy who gets 70 points a year, and seems to be asking for reasonable numbers. I'm confident that the Sabres could get something good for him, if he was really going to be dealt. I just don't think you'll get elite dmen like Redden or Jovocop.

I agree the deal won't work since it's highly unrealistic but to say the Nucks lack defensive depth is news to me. IMO they have the MOST depth on defense, having capable NHL calibre defensemen such as Slegr, Grenier, Allen, etc.. as healthy scratches. Though if you mean top end/top 4 defensemen, then I see your point.

Also, Redden and Jovo might be wonderful and upcoming Norris candidates, but it doesn't make them elite by any means. There are only 5 elite defensemen in the game, being Lidstrom, MacInnis, Pronger, Leetch and Scott Stevens. Both Redden and Jovo are no where near that group and not make my top 10 either..

NYVanfan 09-23-2003 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Modano = God
I agree the deal won't work since it's highly unrealistic but to say the Nucks lack defensive depth is news to me. IMO they have the MOST depth on defense, having capable NHL calibre defensemen such as Slegr, Grenier, Allen, etc.. as healthy scratches. Though if you mean top end/top 4 defensemen, then I see your point.

Also, Redden and Jovo might be wonderful and upcoming Norris candidates, but it doesn't make them elite by any means. There are only 5 elite defensemen in the game, being Lidstrom, MacInnis, Pronger, Leetch and Scott Stevens. Both Redden and Jovo are no where near that group and not make my top 10 either..

I agree with you on all points except you definition of elite defensemen.

Pronger didn't play last year, Leetch hasnt been the same since 1994 ....no Blake, Niedermeyer? how bout Gonchar, who regularly leads Dmen in scoring? The main theme in your list seems to be old guys ....so how about Chelios & Hatcher?

It may be your opinion that Jovo & Redden are not elite defencemen, but I'd wager there are about 30 GMs out there who'd disagree with you....

Ajacied 09-23-2003 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYVanfan
I agree with you on all points except you definition of elite defensemen.

Pronger didn't play last year, Leetch hasnt been the same since 1994 ....no Blake, Niedermeyer? how bout Gonchar, who regularly leads Dmen in scoring? The main theme in your list seems to be old guys ....so how about Chelios & Hatcher?

It may be your opinion that Jovo & Redden are not elite defencemen, but I'd wager there are about 30 GMs out there who'd disagree with you....

One year absense doesn't make Pronger a #3 or anything, he's still the best defenseman in the league after Lidstrom. Blake is overrated, Nieds is solid but hasn't the resume those other 5 have, same with Zubov, Gonchar is getting better defensively, but he has long ways to go, Chelios is done, declined tremendously last season while Hatcher IMO kinda overachieved, we'll see how he does next season which doesn't happen to be a contract year.

I mean "elite" is the upper level, you just can't put the label on some young ones who haven't proven nearly as much or just because thye have the upside to become one. You need experience and seasoning before you can be mentioned among the elite, preferably with some hardware to show for it.

I'll say it again, young players, rookies or prospects are grossly overrated here at HF. Though understandable since it's hockey's future afterall..

LaVal 09-23-2003 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Modano = God
One year absense doesn't make Pronger a #3 or anything, he's still the best defenseman in the league after Lidstrom. Blake is overrated, Nieds is solid but hasn't the resume those other 5 have, same with Zubov, Gonchar is getting better defensively, but he has long ways to go, Chelios is done, declined tremendously last season while Hatcher IMO kinda overachieved, we'll see how he does next season which doesn't happen to be a contract year.

I mean "elite" is the upper level, you just can't put the label on some young ones who haven't proven nearly as much or just because thye have the upside to become one. You need experience and seasoning before you can be mentioned among the elite, preferably with some hardware to show for it.

I'll say it again, young players, rookies or prospects are grossly overrated here at HF. Though understandable since it's hockey's future afterall..

well, most hockey publications consider "elite" to be a much broader term in NHL defensemen, as they generally consider Jovo and Redden as "elite" defensemen. i understand your point, however most people use the term as the hockey publications and sites do.

e.g. from tsn.ca

"Jovanovski is now among the elite defensemen in the league."

Ajacied 09-23-2003 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaVal575
well, most hockey publications consider "elite" to be a much broader term in NHL defensemen, as they generally consider Jovo and Redden as "elite" defensemen. i understand your point, however most people use the term as the hockey publications and sites do.

e.g. from tsn.ca

"Jovanovski is now among the elite defensemen in the league."

TSN is grossly biased towards the Canadian teams, I don't put much value into that. Better yet, IMO Jovo still has to prove that he is a bonafide #1, much less elite.

If he were to be "elite", so would 45 other defensemen..

Pure Slaughter Value 09-23-2003 06:31 AM

TSN is grossly biased towards the Canadian teams

To a ridiculous extent. It's laughable at times.

PuckU 09-23-2003 08:27 AM

Is a Satan, Klee package that costly? Couldln't a Hammer, 1st, and a prospect be enough?

Darth Milbury 09-23-2003 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Modano = God
I agree the deal won't work since it's highly unrealistic but to say the Nucks lack defensive depth is news to me. IMO they have the MOST depth on defense, having capable NHL calibre defensemen such as Slegr, Grenier, Allen, etc.. as healthy scratches. Though if you mean top end/top 4 defensemen, then I see your point.

Also, Redden and Jovo might be wonderful and upcoming Norris candidates, but it doesn't make them elite by any means. There are only 5 elite defensemen in the game, being Lidstrom, MacInnis, Pronger, Leetch and Scott Stevens. Both Redden and Jovo are no where near that group and not make my top 10 either..


They do lack depth, in terms of high end guys. There are maybe three guys on that team you'd want in the top four on a contending team. VCR could use one more high level guy.

Darth Milbury 09-23-2003 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PuckU
Is a Satan, Klee package that costly? Couldln't a Hammer, 1st, and a prospect be enough?


Probably not. Hamrlik is expensive and will be eligable for a new contract this summer. Satan and Mckee (who I think you mean instead of Klee) would cost at least Hamrlik and Parrish, and Isles would have to add a bit more.

Peter Griffin 09-23-2003 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
They do lack depth, in terms of high end guys. There are maybe three guys on that team you'd want in the top four on a contending team. VCR could use one more high level guy.

But depth in terms of high end guys is different from overall depth. The way I see it, the Canucks have two #1/#2 guys in Ohlund and Jovo(they interchange, both can be #1 guys), two #4's in Sopel and Salo, a #5 in Malik, and two #6/7's in Allen and Slegr, while Allen has the potential to become a top 4 defender, perhaps as early as this season. While the Canucks could use another top 4 defender(not many teams couldn't), they have enough depth through thr #4-7 slot to make up for it.

Darth Milbury 09-23-2003 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Griffin
But depth in terms of high end guys is different from overall depth. The way I see it, the Canucks have two #1/#2 guys in Ohlund and Jovo(they interchange, both can be #1 guys), two #4's in Sopel and Salo, a #5 in Malik, and two #6/7's in Allen and Slegr, while Allen has the potential to become a top 4 defender, perhaps as early as this season. While the Canucks could use another top 4 defender(not many teams couldn't), they have enough depth through thr #4-7 slot to make up for it.


Fair enough. But, that sort of arrangment means that a trade of either Jovocop or Ohlund is very unlikely. You don't have enough depth at the top end to move one of those guys.

Contrast VCR's situation with Long Island. The difference in talent level between Hamrlik, Janne N., and Kenny J. is not great. So, one could be potentially be moved (although that would be bad because the Isles lack VCR's depth in the #4 - #7 slots).

Peter Griffin 09-23-2003 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
But, that sort of arrangment means that a trade of either Jovocop or Ohlund is very unlikely. You don't have enough depth at the top end to move one of those guys.

I don't think any Canucks fans think that either one will be traded, for a long time. Very few teams that are contending could get away with trading one of their top 2 d-man, in fact I'm not sure if any could.

Grady41 09-23-2003 06:28 PM

What would it take from LA to get Satan and Zhitnik

Howbout
MILLER
CAMMALLERI
AULIN

note *I think they may all be injured Cam and Aulin for sure :cry:


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