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Isles Fan 01-28-2013 03:45 PM

Holding Leads
 
So after watching that horror show last night, this teams penchant for not being able to hold leads is becomming a huge concern.

What makes it even more conccerning is that it is a hold over issue from the last few years and even going back to the Scott Gordon days.

When Gordon was here I always felt his up tempo style caused tired legs in the latter part of the game hence the blown leads but he's gone and the issue is still here.

Is it lack of disapline? Coaching? I can't put my finger on it. Last night's game went from up 2 to tied in a blink. At this point you have to wonder if it is in their heads and how big of a lead is safe for this team?

KyleBailey12 01-28-2013 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isles Fan (Post 58540231)
So after watching that horror show last night, this teams penchant for not being able to hold leads is becomming a huge concern.

What makes it even more conccerning is that it is a hold over issue from the last few years and even going back to the Scott Gordon days.

When Gordon was here I always felt his up tempo style caused tired legs in the latter part of the game hence the blown leads but he's gone and the issue is still here.

Is it lack of disapline? Coaching? I can't put my finger on it. Last night's game went from up 2 to tied in a blink. At this point you have to wonder if it is in their heads and how big of a lead is safe for this team?

No lead is safe. It's completely unacceptable.

As for the bold, it's a little bit of both. I put more of the blame on Capuano.

Twine Seeking Missle 01-28-2013 04:03 PM

It's simple. This team doesn't know how to win. It's one thing to be able to outscore your opponent for 50 minutes. It's quite another to be able to finish them off. This team lacks that killer instinct. That's what you get with a bunch of kids complemented by waiver wire dumpster diving. ZERO veteran presence and this is what you get.

13th Floor 01-28-2013 04:03 PM

I see a couple of things here.

1. First this is a small sample size for this year. We almost gave up the lead in one game and gave up the lead in another. It led to a total of 3 out of 4 points. Certainly improvement from the year when it seemed like we were losing 3 goal leads every night. Also worth noting that we came back from a 2 goal lead this year. And we stayed in and tied the game after trailing in both the NJ and BOS games. Based on that, I'd say there is improvement.

2. Lack of good coaching. Frankly, Cap isn't an NHL coach. He doesn't know how to switch up styles at different parts of the game. He consistently has the wrong personnel on the ice and he is too slow (or non-existent) at in game line changes and in game strategy changes. Hickey playing majorly important minutes in his first NHL game. Moulson with a horrible game against Boston but still sees a regular shift all game. Etc.

3. We don't know how to win yet. Period. This is one of those reasons why 'tanking' doesn't work, but is too subtle for the load of idiots who think professionals losing on purpose is a good idea. One 18-year-old kid is not going to turn a team around and suddenly produce a winning atmosphere. This is the same reason that Toronto gave up a two goal lead in back to back games and didn't get a point in either game (to us and then to the Rangers). Same thing going on over there. Adding a player like Kessel (which was Toronto's version of drafting high) helps, but doesn't fix everything in a TEAM game. It's also why they collapsed last year. The key is to look for progress in all departments, which I think we are seeing based on my first point (or it is too early to tell).

Isles Fan 01-28-2013 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KyleBailey12 (Post 58540773)
No lead is safe. It's completely unacceptable.

As for the bold, it's a little bit of both. I put more of the blame on Capuano.

But this has been going on since before Capuano took over. Can't fault him 100% and that's where I am lost with it.

Dan-o16 01-28-2013 04:17 PM

We've got playesr not fit to play the minutes they're playing, getting tired and outmuscled as the game goes on and gets more intense... We've got Mark Streit and Andrew MacDonald playing Chris Pronger minutes. This isn't rocket science.

Cheers,

Dan-o

Mr Wentworth 01-28-2013 05:16 PM

Scott - the destroyer of groins - Gordon was fired.
Cappy was brought up.
I'm sure we all assumed, as did Snow, that Cappy would be the interim coach.
Then the Isles went on a tear the second half of the 2011 season.
I think Snow attributed the tear the Isles were on to Cappy's coaching. (Letting the players play and not being so locked into a tight system.)

So....Cappy was given another shot last year. Could this be because of how well the Isles did? Could be. Could it be because Wang doesn't want to spend money on a "real" coach? Could be. Could it be because no "real" coach wants to go to the Isles? Could be.

So, we fans are now stuck with Cappy behind the bench and so is the team.

Why can't we hold onto leads?

The coach.
The coach can't inspire or lead the team to finish out.
With Gordon I think it was a reluctance to deviate from his system and the Isles just tiring out.
With Cappy, I think its ineptitude.

When my dad was big into hockey, he's say, "Al Arbor would call the boys over, talk to them for a minute, and the whole approach to the game would change. They'd trap...or they'd dump and chase...they'd just change it up when needed." I don't think Cappy has that command over the team.

Richie Daggers Crime 01-28-2013 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crazy Ivan (Post 58545001)
I don't think Cappy has that command over the team.

Cappy doesn't have command over his hair, never mind a hockey team.

But, hey. At least he isn't Gordon... *chirp* *chirp*

I left the gate open 01-28-2013 08:34 PM

Just for the sake of playing Devil's Advocate:

When the Isles found themselves down 2-1 in the third and came back to take a 4-2 lead, was it because the Jets couldn't hold a lead? There are two ways of understanding this question, one trivial and the other substantial.

According to the trivial reading, the mere fact that the Jets had the lead and then lost it is enough to ground the claim that they couldn't hold the lead. They couldn't hold the lead, on this reading, just in the sense that they weren't able to to do it.

According to the substantial reading, there was something about the Jets that explained why they had the lead and then lost it. It's not just that they didn't hold the lead; on this reading, they didn't have the ability to hold it. In roughly the same circumstances, they likely wouldn't have held it.

Is there reason to think that the Isles' problem is substantial in this sense? That is, is there something about them that this causing them to give up leads? If so, what's the evidence for this? Is it the fact that they lost the lead against Winnipeg? In isolation, this is only evidence for the trivial sense of not being able to hold a lead, not the substantial sense which is at issue. Is it the fact that they repeatedly give up leads? Well, this was a problem last season. But they've only lost two games this season. Perhaps it's too early to call it a problem. The defense is a problem, but we knew that. It's not obvious to me that there's a specific lead-holding problem.

Again, I'm just playing Devil's Advocate. I am worried about this, largely because it was an issue last year. But this team is maturing, and perhaps Capuano is as well.

KyleBailey12 01-28-2013 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isles Fan (Post 58541341)
But this has been going on since before Capuano took over. Can't fault him 100% and that's where I am lost with it.

You're completely right. It's hard to split up the blame between the two, but regardless of whose at fault it has to stop.

lorwood 01-29-2013 06:58 AM

I agree that, over the last few seasons, the "philosophy" seems to be to get a lead and then defend. I equate this to the prevent defense in football which only prevents you from winning.

I think the correct method is once you get a lead you should attack and "go for the kill"

But there is always a gamble in that line of thinking and its not my job on the line.

Still it would be great to see a coach that is willing to go "balls to the wall"

Of course a few blown leads because the defense is pinching with a lead and we would all be killing the coach! :laugh:

Dan-o16 01-29-2013 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I left the gate open (Post 58560767)
According to the trivial reading, the mere fact that the Jets had the lead and then lost it is enough to ground the claim that they couldn't hold the lead. They couldn't hold the lead, on this reading, just in the sense that they weren't able to to do it.

According to the substantial reading, there was something about the Jets that explained why they had the lead and then lost it. It's not just that they didn't hold the lead; on this reading, they didn't have the ability to hold it. In roughly the same circumstances, they likely wouldn't have held it.

OMG, are you in the philosophy department or something? This reads like something out of PPR.

Quote:

Is there reason to think that the Isles' problem is substantial in this sense?
Yes, they're small and if not small then slow. And tired, at the end of games from being small and/or slow and playing too many minutes.

Quote:

That is, is there something about them that this causing them to give up leads?
Yes, and intrinsically. Also, their best defensive center (Nielsen) isn't good on the draw.

Quote:

If so, what's the evidence for this?
Flubbed clearing attempts, blind defensive zone passes, and lost battles increase as the game wears on according to my observations. I'm afraid if you want something incontrovertible, you'll have to look somewhere else.

Quote:

Is it the fact that they lost the lead against Winnipeg? In isolation, this is only evidence for the trivial sense of not being able to hold a lead, not the substantial sense which is at issue. Is it the fact that they repeatedly give up leads? Well, this was a problem last season. But they've only lost two games this season. Perhaps it's too early to call it a problem. The defense is a problem, but we knew that. It's not obvious to me that there's a specific lead-holding problem.
Is this Professor Conee? I'd say it was just a problem on Sundays, except that it also seems to affect the team on Tuesdays and Thursdays, and also (at least) Fridays and Saturdays. But perhaps they're not small, they're shmall and tomorrow shmall things will be big.

Quote:

Again, I'm just playing Devil's Advocate. I am worried about this, largely because it was an issue last year. But this team is maturing, and perhaps Capuano is as well.
Maturing will allow this team to play smarter, I suppose. But there's still the fundamental problem that our defense is undersized and/or slow, and this results in us getting penned in deep in or zones. The fact that we gave up the lead in that particular game may have been a fluke. But it also more plausible that the fact we had a lead to begin with was a fluke. We should have been blown out in the first period.

I have no idea what the coach is doing or saying. But I will say this: Why not wait till the Isles think they can contend before bringing in an established coach? If Wang isn't going to spend the money to improve the team besides through the draft, what's the point of hiring and eventually firing (due to predictable failure) an established coach?

Cheers,

Dan-o

Isles hat 01-29-2013 07:34 AM

The sad part is, its not the first time. They get comfortable with a lead, then just skate around with no desire to try hard.

Homeland Security 01-29-2013 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isles hat (Post 58586595)
The sad part is, its not the first time. They get comfortable with a lead, then just skate around with no desire to try hard.

That's exactly it. They're on the gas and then when they get a lead they tend to sit back. WE'RE NOT A TEAM THAT CAN SIT BACK!!! Until that's gets through to them we will continue to blow leads or by some miracle hang on by a thread to come out with a W.

rpkyankees 01-29-2013 12:16 PM

The biggest blame has to fall on the goaltending. The 4th goal against Winnipeg was an awful goal to give up

Twine Seeking Missle 01-29-2013 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpkyankees (Post 58598285)
The biggest blame has to fall on the goaltending. The 4th goal against Winnipeg was an awful goal to give up

You mean the same goaltending that kept the game 1-1 after the 1st period instead of 4-1 Jets?

Bert Marshall days 01-29-2013 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpkyankees (Post 58598285)
The biggest blame has to fall on the goaltending. The 4th goal against Winnipeg was an awful goal to give up

I thought DP was in goal on that until I doublechecked. Brutal.

Even though Nabby has been pretty good every goalie gives up an occasional softy.

I left the gate open 01-29-2013 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan-o16 (Post 58586339)
OMG, are you in the philosophy department or something? This reads like something out of PPR.

I thought about submitting it to Nous or JPhil, but just posted it here instead.

StrongIslanders90 01-29-2013 08:19 PM

4-0 going into the 3rd. Lets see if we can pull this one off

Isles hat 01-29-2013 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StrongIslanders90 (Post 58636935)
4-0 going into the 3rd. Lets see if we can pull this one off

Great team effort till the end. Should of got the SO but I proudly take the 2 pts.

lorwood 01-30-2013 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isles hat (Post 58649215)
Great team effort till the end. Should of got the SO but I proudly take the 2 pts.

Great, unexpected win, no doubt.

I have to disagree (respectively) regarding the third period.

The Pens had 19 shots on goal in the third the Islanders 7.

In the first and second the shots on goal were almost dead even

IMHO the Islanders played the entire third like they were hanging on to a one goal lead with two minutes left.

They were content to back up and try to clear the puck even after the major penalty expired early in the third. Even the clearing attempts were weak and seemed to be done in a state of panic.

Nabby won that game.

If they do not change this mind set from "My God we might actually win I don't know what to do" to "Keep the pedal to the floor" this team will lose a lot of games they should have won.

It seems to be a coaching issue.

John TavArt Ross 01-30-2013 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twine Seeking Missle (Post 58541323)
It's simple. This team doesn't know how to win. It's one thing to be able to outscore your opponent for 50 minutes. It's quite another to be able to finish them off. This team lacks that killer instinct. That's what you get with a bunch of kids complemented by waiver wire dumpster diving. ZERO veteran presence and this is what you get.

This is right on the money. Look at a rookie Qb who throws a TD with 30 seconds left, while the other team has a timeout and is down by 2 points.... 1 pass into field goal range and the veteran Qb is getting handshakes for his amazing comeback win with 3 seconds left......

A Pointed Stick 01-30-2013 09:54 PM

This deserves to be stated again (minus the friendly sarcasm):
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan-o16 (Post 58586339)
Flubbed clearing attempts, blind defensive zone passes, and lost battles increase as the game wears on according to my observations...

...there's still the fundamental problem that our defense is undersized and/or slow, and this results in us getting penned in deep in or zones. The fact that we gave up the lead in that particular game may have been a fluke. But it also more plausible that the fact we had a lead to begin with was a fluke. We should have been blown out in the first period.

Then do what Camper suggested, adding more of a bigger size and Smash-Mouth element and you have a dangerous club.

You want to close games out? Fix these things, and the only way you do it is by replacing/upgrading some of the sacred cow Mary boys in the top 6 and top 4. While we have grown comfortable with Moulson, Kyle, Bailey, Nielsen, Grabner, and undersized defensemen not named Hamonic, the average physique of the club needs to evolve into something better than the geek squad or chess club.


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