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-   -   Holland Really Screwed the Pooch (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1336001)

RedWingsNow* 01-29-2013 03:50 AM

Holland Really Screwed the Pooch
 
Every time your turn around some one is talking about the Red Wings transition year.

I just saw a post with all the new names:
Sammy
Tootoo
Smith
CC
Brunner
Quincey
Huskins
Lashoff


The sad thing is... this isn't even the "transition."

Any transition that doesn't give icetime to Tatar and Nyquist isn't a transition. Any transition that plays CC or Huskins over Kindl isn't a transition... Any transition that cuts Mursak so we can keep Sammy isn't a transition.

In other words, we're looking at a season of mediocrity where we don't even get the one true benefit of being mediocre -- letting the kids prove themselves on the job.

That's what a transition year should be.

Because next year, we've still got Tatar and Nyquist. And guys like Andersson and Ferraro and Jarnkrok are going to be knocking on the door.

This year... is literally retarded.

WesNichols14 01-29-2013 04:00 AM

kindle was hurt to start the season and is going to play on the power play tomorrow I read so he's getting his shot. so far I don't see him as anything special especially for 19th overall
but for the most part I agree. I don't care if we end up 30th overall, I want to see the future not more of the slower same. and I really don't like seeing a .500 team that just makes me think oh great the streak ends and what do we get for it. a good player who need a few years developing because we don't need a young star to get people talking again.
any of the top 6 guys in the draft have star potential who I like. all though my favorite is E. Lindholm. all the big guys have things to bring to the table.

The Silver Lining 01-29-2013 04:06 AM

http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/6...read_again.jpg

Heaton 01-29-2013 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kronwalld (Post 58584703)

I should delete your post as spam, but really - every single thread has this post in it. Every single one. Not like it's untrue, but we're a few games in and the horse is dead.

SoupNazi 01-29-2013 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heaton (Post 58586875)
the horse is dead.

It's beginning to stink too.

aar000n 01-29-2013 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kronwalld (Post 58584703)

The problem is he is right this is getting as old as the pistons fans complaining about not drafting carmelo anthony.

JmanWingsFan 01-29-2013 09:54 AM

ITT Kap'n Bob continues beating a poor horse that's already dead and whose carcass is rotting by now.

Ricelund 01-29-2013 10:06 AM

Thanks, Bob. This hasn't been discussed yet.

RedWingsNow* 01-29-2013 10:33 AM

I don't care if it's been discussed.
We've got half the board talking about Seth Jones at the same time, that somehow, we're not playing Tatar and Nyquist even with 3 Freakin' Forwards on the IR.

We're putting off a lot of the transition to next year.And next year could be worse... Because while Smith may get better, and maybe Brunner, just about everyone else are who they are. They're only older and slower a year from now.

And if we have straight transition years -- make it three or more, because I doubt Datsyuk comes back to Detroit if we suck next year.

Ken Holland is increasing the chances of a long, hard transition by his refusal to play the youngsters.

This should have been a transition on the fly. That's not saying that anyone we have is going to replace Lidstrom or Datsyuk in the next 4-5 years. But this transition needed to start with more zest, 2 or 3 years ago. And it's beyond reason that it's still being held up today.

detredWINgs 01-29-2013 11:18 AM

This is a great thread because of this statement alone:

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Fading Captain (Post 58584575)
This year... is literally retarded.

It is also a rare case wherein "literally" is used properly. :yo:

probertrules24 01-29-2013 11:26 AM

I'm all for this thread if it keeps the complaining out of every other one. We should even go so far as making it into a sticky and moving all posts that are repeated over and over again to it.

Heaton 01-29-2013 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Fading Captain (Post 58592783)
I don't care if it's been discussed.
We've got half the board talking about Seth Jones at the same time, that somehow, we're not playing Tatar and Nyquist even with 3 Freakin' Forwards on the IR.

We're putting off a lot of the transition to next year.And next year could be worse... Because while Smith may get better, and maybe Brunner, just about everyone else are who they are. They're only older and slower a year from now.

And if we have straight transition years -- make it three or more, because I doubt Datsyuk comes back to Detroit if we suck next year.

Ken Holland is increasing the chances of a long, hard transition by his refusal to play the youngsters.

This should have been a transition on the fly. That's not saying that anyone we have is going to replace Lidstrom or Datsyuk in the next 4-5 years. But this transition needed to start with more zest, 2 or 3 years ago. And it's beyond reason that it's still being held up today.

Everyone knows this, Newsy. This is why the board started *****ing as soon as the lockout ended. Everyone knew we had re-signed Bertuzzi for two years. Everyone knew we re-signed Samuelsson. Everyone knew we signed Colaiacovo. Everyone knew we had too many bodies in the bottom 6.

This is brought up in every single thread. Why isn't Nyquist up? Why isn't Tatar up? Why isn't Mursak playing (before he got hurt). Why aren't we giving Sheahan a spot when other 'contenders' are giving spots to teenagers?

Holland is missing the boat big time. Like everyone likes to point out, this isn't 2001 in a no cap league where Holland can overspend. I think everyone knows Holland has been trending down since the last finals appearance. I have no idea if Holland and the gang have a sure fire method to their madness, but I think we all know that in two years time we'll see where this team really is.

WingedWheel1987 01-29-2013 11:42 AM

Until Holland realizes his team building philosophy no longer works, we will be seeing a lot more of these threads. The 2012-2013 season is a throwaway year where you learn nothing.

Not winning a cup

Not going to enjoy seeing how the rookies look besides Smith.

Harnessed in Slums 01-29-2013 11:47 AM

This thread gives new meaning to the phrase "give a dog a bone". Fido had no idea what was coming next. :shakehead

RedWingsNow* 01-29-2013 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heaton (Post 58596089)
Everyone knows this, Newsy. This is why the board started *****ing as soon as the lockout ended. Everyone knew we had re-signed Bertuzzi for two years. Everyone knew we re-signed Samuelsson. Everyone knew we signed Colaiacovo. Everyone knew we had too many bodies in the bottom 6.

This is brought up in every single thread. Why isn't Nyquist up? Why isn't Tatar up? Why isn't Mursak playing (before he got hurt). Why aren't we giving Sheahan a spot when other 'contenders' are giving spots to teenagers?

Holland is missing the boat big time. Like everyone likes to point out, this isn't 2001 in a no cap league where Holland can overspend. I think everyone knows Holland has been trending down since the last finals appearance. I have no idea if Holland and the gang have a sure fire method to their madness, but I think we all know that in two years time we'll see where this team really is.

I don't think everyone knows it Heaton. Or people wouldn't get so bent out of shape over the criticism.
The longer we plug the bottle on the rebuild, the nastier this will be.

TatarTangle 01-29-2013 11:54 AM

And of those names the only 'new' players are Tootoo, Brunner and Huskins. Only reason Huskins being on the list is because of injuries. Like the guy though, just wants to play defense and makes good breakout passes. I said in another post CC doesn't count, we all knew he wasn't going to be playing very many games.

It's a classic example of you can't teach old dogs new tricks. It didn't work three years ago, it didn't work two years ago, it didn't work last year and it's not going to work this year. Those old dogs, however, can teach new dogs the same tricks that have worked for them *cough cough Smith (Lidstrom) cough cough*

What goes up, must come down. We're going to see how good of a GM KH really is after this year. I'm not looking for a Stanley Cup team but he has to freshen things up, this team is just stagnant now. It's his last shot to live up to his name, IMHO.

Hossa. I miss Hossa.

Ricelund 01-29-2013 02:05 PM

I think it's pretty clear what Holland was trying to do. He was trying to "reload" this year. Had they added Suter, Salo, and Nash (as I believe they intended to), these signings would be great -- but since they didn't acquire any of the big fish, we're left with this mess of mediocre veterans. I think this is what Holland's ideal scenario for this year was, assuming Franzen and Nyquist were the cornerstones of the Nash trade:

Bertuzzi-Datsyuk-Nash
Filppula-Zetterberg-Brunner
Cleary-Helm-Samuelsson
Eaves-Abdelkader-Tootoo
Miller

Suter-Salo
Kronwall-Ericsson
Quincey-Smith/White

Howard
Gustavsson

That's a killer team. That's what they wanted and it didn't work, which sucks for both the fans and the development of the young guys.

They tried -- they made a massive offer to Suter and a substantial offer for Nash that Columbus wouldn't even listen to. They tried and failed. Am I sick of them failing in the offseason for three years straight now? Absolutely -- but they tried.

crashman 01-29-2013 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDrake28 (Post 58597099)
Hossa. I miss Hossa.

I couldn't believe he didn't lock that guy up when he had the chance. I think that was the beginning of Holland's downward spiral.

Yes there would have been cap issues if they signed Hossa, but Holland should have made it work. The guy wanted to be here.

Ricelund 01-29-2013 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crashman (Post 58604169)
I couldn't believe he didn't lock that guy up when he had the chance. I think that was the beginning of Holland's downward spiral.

Yes there would have been cap issues if they signed Hossa, but Holland should have made it work. The guy wanted to be here.

Agreed, and I've been saying this since they let him go. I think most Wings fans feel this way.

An elite winger fell into their lap and they let him go in favor of Hudler, Samuelsson, Cleary, etc. They should've found a way to make room, plain and simple.

RedWingsNow* 01-29-2013 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricelund (Post 58603607)
I think it's pretty clear what Holland was trying to do. He was trying to "reload" this year. Had they added Suter, Salo, and Nash (as I believe they intended to), these signings would be great -- but since they didn't acquire any of the big fish, we're left with this mess of mediocre veterans. I think this is what Holland's ideal scenario for this year was, assuming Franzen and Nyquist were the cornerstones of the Nash trade:

Bertuzzi-Datsyuk-Nash
Filppula-Zetterberg-Brunner
Cleary-Helm-Samuelsson
Eaves-Abdelkader-Tootoo
Miller

Suter-Salo
Kronwall-Ericsson
Quincey-Smith/White

Howard
Gustavsson

That's a killer team. That's what they wanted and it didn't work, which sucks for both the fans and the development of the young guys.

They tried -- they made a massive offer to Suter and a substantial offer for Nash that Columbus wouldn't even listen to. They tried and failed. Am I sick of them failing in the offseason for three years straight now? Absolutely -- but they tried.

Do you think they wanted Nash and Suter?
Even if they'd gotten those guys, what the hell was the point of Sammy? And Quincey? Especially at that kind of money.
Why pay Sammy $3M when you can pay Nyquist $800,000?
Or why pay Quincey $3.5 or whatever when Kindl makes $800,000 and a veteran stay-at-home guy like Hannan or Huskins are available cheap?

Even if you swing for the fences ... you still got to protect the plate a little bit. As good as Nash is, he's past his prime goal scoring years. As good as Suter is, he doesn't replace Lidstrom and Stuart.

It's debateable how much Nash and Suter improve on last year's first round loser. And it's still important that we develop the guys in the AHL.

Ricelund 01-29-2013 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Fading Captain (Post 58604707)
Even if you swing for the fences ... you still got to protect the plate a little bit. As good as Nash is, he's past his prime goal scoring years. As good as Suter is, he doesn't replace Lidstrom and Stuart.

It's debateable how much Nash and Suter improve on last year's first round loser. And it's still important that we develop the guys in the AHL.

So what you're saying is you'd be unhappy regardless of Holland's performance this offseason.

Got it.

RedWingsNow* 01-29-2013 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricelund (Post 58605147)
So what you're saying is you'd be unhappy regardless of Holland's performance this offseason.

Got it.

Wow. Didn't realize you were so dishonest.

What I am saying is that with
Mursak, Nyquist, Tatar, Kindl, Smith, Emmerton --- and others, all waiting for their chance... we needed to make space for it -- plain and simple.

That might mean cutting a third liner or fourth line veteran.

Signing Sammy and Brunner and even Tootoo -- who we need -- was stupid if you keep Miller and Cleary and Eaves and Bertuzzi... and not open the door for youth.

Nash is a first liner. Doesn't change a thing about the rookie vs depth player problem we have.

The Wings had a quantity vs quality problem at forward before the season started - even with the departure of Hudler and Home. And we made it worse.

Ricelund 01-29-2013 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Fading Captain (Post 58605389)
Wow. Didn't realize you were so dishonest.

What I am saying is that with
Mursak, Nyquist, Tatar, Kindl, Smith, Emmerton --- and others, all waiting for their chance... we needed to make space for it -- plain and simple.

Mursak, Kindl, and Emmerton are nothing special. Hell, Mursak had his shot last year AND this year and got hurt both times. It's unfortunate, but you can't blame the Wings. Are you upset Ritola didn't get enough time while he was here?

Smith is getting NHL minutes this year. Nyquist and Tatar will next year, which sucks, but I believe that's because the Wings were swinging for the fences and missed this offseason.

BinCookin 01-29-2013 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDrake28 (Post 58597099)

Hossa. I miss Hossa.

I will be honest, Hossa may very well be the BEST player in the league for his cap hit right now...5.2 is it? Sure its one of those back diving long term contracts. BUT he is at 5.2 (Carter (LAK) is 5.2) also really good long term deal and Hossa is better. He played well for us that season and playoffs. I would love to have him on our team for that cap hit right now.

It was sad he didn't resign. Our ability to get another superstar player is EASIEST through UFA, but the odds big name players actually make it to UFA status is rare, and thus a MASSIVE bidding war takes place. So you have to pay them 7.5-8 mil? How many of those guys can we take on our team right now?

RedWingsNow* 01-29-2013 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricelund (Post 58606469)
Mursak, Kindl, and Emmerton are nothing special. Hell, Mursak had his shot last year AND this year and got hurt both times. It's unfortunate, but you can't blame the Wings. Are you upset Ritola didn't get enough time while he was here?

Smith is getting NHL minutes this year. Nyquist and Tatar will next year, which sucks, but I believe that's because the Wings were swinging for the fences and missed this offseason.

Even if they swung for the fences and missed, there was no need to bring in mediocrity in favor of youth.


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