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-   -   Its time for JR to fix this D... If he knows how... (http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=1336075)

Beardy* 01-29-2013 09:47 AM

Its time for JR to fix this D... If he knows how...
 
All I heard in the offseason was how good the moves were that he made to bring in Jordan Staal and Alex Semin... and I have to say, those were actually 2 good moves. Those guys have been playing well so far this season, and the chemistry they're getting with their linemates (Semin with Eric Staal and Jordan Staal with Skinner) is something that has already shown its potential, and it is going to be really fun to watch as the season progresses.

But... I mean this is 2 seasons in a row right now of just awful, awful defensive play in front of Cam Ward, Justin Peters, and Dan Ellis. How can you honestly expect to win a majority of your games if you simply cannot keep the puck out of your own net. That game winning goal last night with Harrison and Gleason just parked in front of Cam while Boston was turning them around with passing was simply horrible. We have a defense right now that has to resort to putting out a line of Corvo-Sanguinetti just because one player is hurt. Thats..... bad.

But its not like I have any confidence that Rutherford knows what to do to fix this. His defensive fixes the past 2 years have been Thomas Kaberle and Joe Corvo. Arguably the 2 worst defensive contracts handed out in the NHL the past 2 offseasons. Does he even know how to fix this? I mean, he has this unholy obsession with the offensive defensemen, when what we desperately, desperately need right now are some stay at home d-men who's primary job role is keeping the puck out of and away from the net. There's a reason this team was successful with the likes of Aaron Ward, Mike Commodore, and Niklas Wallin on defense. They knew how to keep the puck away from the net, and we just don't have guys like that anymore on the roster. I'd say Gleason might be the only one, but he's kind of on the downslope of his career, and probably will not be around much longer. Even more frustrating is that we dealt away our best prospect who fit this mold as the throw-in on the Jordan Staal trade.

Frustrating. I am sure he's banking on being able to get Marc Staal in the coming seasons, but man... we need that help now.

Lazyking 01-29-2013 01:26 PM

The depressing thing is, it's hard to get that help now because we don't really have trade pieces that would get us a defensive Dman unless the other team wanted an offensive dman back like McBain.

jeromeo87 01-29-2013 02:32 PM

In my opinion, I think we need a top 4, two-way, right-handed dman - someone who can block shots, knows how to shut down but can also contribute offensively and play with the likes of Pitkanen. Someone like Kevin Bieksa is who we need. Bieksa would be too hard to get; anyone know anyone who may be available who plays like him?

Gleason Faulk
Pitkanen X
Harrison McBain/Sanguinetti

impeach estaalo 01-29-2013 03:08 PM

I think the point is being missed a bit here. The problem isn't too many offensive defensemen, it's too many third-pairing or fringe NHL defensemen. You say the team was "successful" with a certain type of defensemen, but they missed the playoffs both years after the Cup win and both years before the Cup win with a mostly defensive D group . In fact the only time they've made the playoffs in the last six years is with mostly offensive D in 08-09 (and then they missed it again the next year when JR overhauled the D with more defensive D).

No, the problem is bad defensemen in general. In my mind we have three second-pairing defensemen, two third-pairing defensemen and two players who do not belong in the NHL. No matter what mix of defensive/offensive types you have, that isn't going to work. As you note, it was two "defensive defensemen" who royally ****ed up on the GWG. Ideally Gleason and Harrison should be #4 and #6 defensemen and certainly not placed in a shutdown role. That is the problem.

The solution has and always has been a top-pairing defensemen or multiple top 4 defensemen.

Lazyking 01-29-2013 03:13 PM

I think the whole team's structure would have to change to get top defensemen or suck so bad we draft one. the team is built for offense and most of the money is put into forwards. Yes, Gleason and Pitts get a decent amount of money but not top guy money..

We didn't even try for Shea Weber as an example.

I just think it's an organizational philosophy and one that doesn't really work with a small market team.

Anton Dubinchuk 01-29-2013 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Summer Ruutu (Post 58603787)
I think the point is being missed a bit here. The problem isn't too many offensive defensemen, it's too many third-pairing or fringe NHL defensemen. You say the team was "successful" with a certain type of defensemen, but they missed the playoffs both years after the Cup win and both years before the Cup win with a mostly defensive D group . In fact the only time they've made the playoffs in the last six years is with mostly offensive D in 08-09 (and then they missed it again the next year when JR overhauled the D with more defensive D).

No, the problem is bad defensemen in general. In my mind we have three second-pairing defensemen, two third-pairing defensemen and two players who do not belong in the NHL. No matter what mix of defensive/offensive types you have, that isn't going to work. As you note, it was two "defensive defensemen" who royally ****ed up on the GWG. Ideally Gleason and Harrison should be #4 and #6 defensemen and certainly not placed in a shutdown role. That is the problem.

The solution has and always has been a top-pairing defensemen or multiple top 4 defensemen.

I totally agree. However, Yannick Weber is not that player, either. If we're going to add another PMD, it has to be a GOOD PMD. We can't be doing this Joe Corvo/Aaron Ward/Josef Melichar **** again. JR made the right move for a guy like Kaberle, just didn't work out. We need that quality of player. Niskanen works.

That being said, most of the guys we need aren't actually available. In the meanwhile, if we ARE going to have to resort to adding a 3rd pairing guy, he better be able to play in his own zone. We're not talking about a permanent solution. We're not going to fix this D this season. IMO if we can't get a top 4 guy we need a veteran patch for the remainder of the season and then hit the D market HARD in free agency this offseason, ESPECIALLY if Semin walks.

Carolinas Identity 01-29-2013 03:34 PM

McBain + Boychuk for Douglas Murray?

Gleason//Faulk
Pitkänen//Murray
Harrison//Sanguinetti

Anton Dubinchuk 01-29-2013 03:43 PM

Murray works, but I thought with the exception of that toe drag at the blueline McBain was fine last night. I think the conditioning thing is spot on, but even still he's one of our better defensemen. I'd have trouble giving him up for Murray. I'd gladly give Sangs though, not that they'd really want him...

EDIT: Remember that year where we had 3 second round picks and we gave two of them up for Riley Nash and Bobby Sanguinetti? Then remember how Riley Nash is still in the AHL and Bobby Sanguinetti SHOULD still be in the AHL? Ahh, those were the days...

Lazyking 01-29-2013 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jussi Trollinen (Post 58605163)
McBain + Boychuk for Douglas Murray?

Gleason//Faulk
Pitkänen//Murray
Harrison//Sanguinetti


Douglas Murray is a bum. When the Sharks dman are all healthy, he won't be playing. Even if he'd be a good fit, giving up McBain is too much.

Carolinas Identity 01-29-2013 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anton Dubinchuk (Post 58605623)
Murray works, but I thought with the exception of that toe drag at the blueline McBain was fine last night. I think the conditioning thing is spot on, but even still he's one of our better defensemen. I'd have trouble giving him up for Murray. I'd gladly give Sangs though, not that they'd really want him...

That was my thinking. I haven't watched a lot of Sharks games, but they are undefeated and playing ridiculously well. Might take a bit of an overpay to get them to move one of their better defencemen.

Maybe we could tweak it a bit tho.

La Huracanista 01-29-2013 03:47 PM

Gleason's a good shutdown defenseman, Pitkanen's a good offensive weapon, and the sky is the limit for Faulk. McBain's a 4/5 guy who should be on the PP, and Jay Harrison's a really good third pairing guy. I honestly don't mind the following:

Gleason-Faulk (play 25 minutes, against opponent's top line)
Pitkanen-McBain (can play over 20 minutes, gets offensive zone starts)
Harrison-Sanguinetti (15 solid minutes)

When everyone's healthy, the weak links in this lineup are probably McBain (more a 4/5 than a top 4) and Sanguinetti (possibly a 6/7 rather than a confirmed contributor like Harrison). But everyone else belongs where they are in the lineup.

Faulk being injured kind of ****s everything up, unfortunately. I hope we're looking for a top 4 guy.

Cardiac_Canes 01-29-2013 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jussi Trollinen (Post 58605163)
McBain + Boychuk for Douglas Murray?

Gleason//Faulk
Pitkänen//Murray
Harrison//Sanguinetti

I wouldn't do it.

La Huracanista 01-29-2013 03:51 PM

Not sure why we would move a decent defenseman to get a defenseman...McBain's probably sticking around, he played a ton of minutes last night.

Beardy* 01-29-2013 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anton Dubinchuk (Post 58605623)
Murray works, but I thought with the exception of that toe drag at the blueline McBain was fine last night. I think the conditioning thing is spot on, but even still he's one of our better defensemen. I'd have trouble giving him up for Murray. I'd gladly give Sangs though, not that they'd really want him...

Ugh... Yeah... I'm not really sure there are that many pieces around right now that I'd be willing to give up that would really be that much of an upgrade over what we have. At least nothing we can trade for a player we could use.

And I'm not sure I like that trade, to be honest. If we're going to trade McBain, McBain still has a ton of potential to suitors out there, and if we play it right, we can definitely get something nice back. I'd like to at least get a top veteran guy from a team looking for future defensive potential in a salary dump kind of deal. Maybe include a draft pick as well to sweeten the deal. Needless to say, whoever we could get needs to be playing top line minutes, or we don't really help ourselves out too much. And, if you trade McBain and Sanguinetti, you're stuck dressing Corvo on a nightly basis, which does little to nothing to help our problems. I have no idea if there is any team and player combination out there that fits this mold, so I'm not quite sure where we can go with it.

I really do think its all but certain that Marc Staal ends up here when his Rangers contract is up. At the very least, I see his family putting enough pressure on him to at least let him get to free agency to hear the Canes out before he re-signs in New York. Unfortunately, thats still 3 years away, and we really need the help NOW.

As an aside, if Semin keeps playing like this, I find it increasingly likely that JR offers him a contract extension during the season. I get the feeling Alex likes playing here, as even after a week, he and Eric are beginning to click better than Eric and Cole ever did. Just wish we had more talented or gritty wingers to put with the Staal-Semin and Staal-Skinner lines... Someone to do the dirty work to draw in defenders before kicking the puck out to the playmakers.

Boom Boom Anton 01-29-2013 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anton Dubinchuk (Post 58605623)

EDIT: Remember that year where we had 3 second round picks and we gave two of them up for Riley Nash and Bobby Sanguinetti? Then remember how Riley Nash is still in the AHL and Bobby Sanguinetti SHOULD still be in the AHL? Ahh, those were the days...

That's not quite accurate. While we did give up 2nd round picks for Sanguinetti and Nash, they weren't picks in the same year (even though the players were traded for in the same year).

We had 3 2nd round picks that year (2010) and used two of them to select Justin Faulk (our pick) and Mark Alt (from San Jose for the trade of Wallin). We traded 1 2nd round pick (from Ottawa for Cullen) to Edmonton for Nash. That same year, we traded an extra future 2011 2nd round pick (that we got from Washington for the Corvo Trade) for Sanguinetti.

I'm not defending the trades, but in fairness, virtually anybody the Canes picked with those picks would still be in college, Jr's or the AHL as well and many of them aren't slam dunks either.

bilpeto 01-29-2013 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boom Boom Anton (Post 58607547)
That's not quite accurate. While we did give up 2nd round picks for Sanguinetti and Nash, they weren't picks in the same year (even though the players were traded for in the same year).

We had 3 2nd round picks that year (2010) and used two of them to select Justin Faulk (our pick) and Mark Alt (from San Jose for the trade of Wallin). We traded 1 2nd round pick (from Ottawa for Cullen) to Edmonton for Nash. That same year, we traded an extra future 2011 2nd round pick (that we got from Washington for the Corvo Trade) for Sanguinetti.

I'm not defending the trades, but in fairness, virtually anybody the Canes picked with those picks would still be in college, Jr's or the AHL as well and many of them aren't slam dunks either.

I wonder what would have happened had we selected Merrill rather than Faulk. I seem to remember a bit of people salivating over the potential of drafting Merrill, but we ended up grabbing Faulk instead, and we all know how that choice has worked out so far on our end.

DaveG 01-29-2013 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PublicEnemy (Post 58607727)
I wonder what would have happened had we selected Merrill rather than Faulk. I seem to remember a bit of people salivating over the potential of drafting Merrill, but we ended up grabbing Faulk instead, and we all know how that choice has worked out so far on our end.

Not saying we'd be boned, but we'd be going "damn why did we take Merrill over this guy?". Can't forget that he was suspended for a ton of games at Michigan due to (I believe) alcohol related issues. It's not that he's not a capable player, but he's having a ton of issues so far in his career. I'm honestly beginning to wonder if he'll ever make it, because it will be an absolute waste if he doesn't.

Anton Dubinchuk 01-29-2013 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boom Boom Anton (Post 58607547)
That's not quite accurate. While we did give up 2nd round picks for Sanguinetti and Nash, they weren't picks in the same year (even though the players were traded for in the same year).

We had 3 2nd round picks that year (2010) and used two of them to select Justin Faulk (our pick) and Mark Alt (from San Jose for the trade of Wallin). We traded 1 2nd round pick (from Ottawa for Cullen) to Edmonton for Nash. That same year, we traded an extra future 2011 2nd round pick (that we got from Washington for the Corvo Trade) for Sanguinetti.

I'm not defending the trades, but in fairness, virtually anybody the Canes picked with those picks would still be in college, Jr's or the AHL as well and many of them aren't slam dunks either.

Yeah I went to check on that after, forgot Sangs was a 2011 2nd. Still, I'd rather have whatever players we got with those picks than either of these guys.

Although we just traded our 2nd 2nd rounder in 2010 for our new best AHL player, so that's something...

Yes We Cam 01-29-2013 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beardy (Post 58588599)
They knew how to keep the puck away from the net, and we just don't have guys like that anymore on the roster. I'd say Gleason might be the only one, but he's kind of on the downslope of his career, and probably will not be around much longer.

I disagree with this statement, but I sure do hope he's gone after, if not sooner, than when his contract expires. Other than that, you assessment is spot on.

Lets not forget that JR was a bidder in the Suter sweepstakes. Signing Kabs for .5 million more than Cole after letting him walk was a confusing mistake. That signing came out of the blue and was shocking to say the least. I'm onboard with acquiring Yannick Weber as long as it means that Sangs and Cuervo aren't playing.

jeromeo87 01-29-2013 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by La Huracanista (Post 58605831)
Gleason's a good shutdown defenseman, Pitkanen's a good offensive weapon, and the sky is the limit for Faulk. McBain's a 4/5 guy who should be on the PP, and Jay Harrison's a really good third pairing guy. I honestly don't mind the following:

Gleason-Faulk (play 25 minutes, against opponent's top line)
Pitkanen-McBain (can play over 20 minutes, gets offensive zone starts)
Harrison-Sanguinetti (15 solid minutes)

When everyone's healthy, the weak links in this lineup are probably McBain (more a 4/5 than a top 4) and Sanguinetti (possibly a 6/7 rather than a confirmed contributor like Harrison). But everyone else belongs where they are in the lineup.

Faulk being injured kind of ****s everything up, unfortunately. I hope we're looking for a top 4 guy.

I don't mind the top pairing of Gleason and Faulk, at all. I would like Faulk to create a little more offense, but other than that, I'm happy.

As far as Pitkanen and McBain: I've been pretty happy with Pitkanen's play this year - no real complaints. But I still don't like the pairing of Pitkanen and McBain. There just isn't enough defense there. We all know Pitkanen is an offensive-minded dman; he is going to take chances sometimes. And some of these times he is going to turn the puck over. We need someone paired with him who can make up for these kinds of mistakes. McBain is not that player. I don't dislike McBain; I just think he's too offensive-minded to pair him with Pitkanen. We need a solid two-way dman with Pits, someone who can contribute offensively with him and be a shutdown guy when needed.

As far as Murray goes: Yeah, I think we need someone like him, but he's simply not a top 4 guy. He isn't great with the puck, at all, and he's actually pretty darn slow. He wouldn't be able to keep up with Pits, at all.

I do believe JR can fix this defense, it's just going to take time. I can see something like this in the near future:

Gleason Faulk
M.Staal (yep) Murphy
Harrison Sanguinetti/free agent

DaveG 01-29-2013 04:51 PM

I'm not even mad about the Nash trade yet, we don't even know what we have in him long term since he's been stuck in the AHL. But he's looked solid in his limited action in callups last season. The fact that we have Brent here through this year means we probably won't find out for at least one more year what he can do. He'll never be an offensive guy but if he can turn into another KAds then it's a good trade for us. Most second round picks never even sniff being NHL regulars.

Beardy* 02-09-2013 03:48 PM

I'm done with Sanguinetti... Bench him, send him back to Charlotte, do something, but I never want to see him in a Canes uniform ever again.

He's terrible and a damn liability in every aspect of his game. Get him out of Raleigh... The experiment is over... Get did of him.

Carolinas Identity 02-09-2013 03:52 PM

Chris Campoli is a UFA I believe.

Thoughts?

Novacane 02-09-2013 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jussi Trollinen (Post 59362883)
Chris Campoli is a UFA I believe.

Thoughts?

As pathetic as this sounds, I want nothing to do with him after the CBA shenanigans.

Roboturner913 02-09-2013 05:19 PM

We need a 32-year-old Glen Wesley, a clone of Pitkanen, and Corvo to shoot 11 times a game and stay the hell off the ice otherwise. That's all.


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